L u k a
aaah hi!! I haven't talked with you in so long, how are you?
Yeaaaah, missed u v__v
I'm alright, all things considered xD I hope you've been great :0
Aw likewise! I don't have any mutual chats with you anymore so it's hard to keep up.
I'm glad to hear it! I'm actually doing quite well thank you :> uni and work and life all getting well-juggled
Yeaaah D: it sucks but ahhh, what the hell haha.
That's great! Hope things keep going nicely for you
“Okay, guys,” a female coworker of mine recently began, as she addressed me and a female colleague. Then she stopped herself, said she was making an effort to use more gender-neutral language, and carried on talking.
It was a small self-correction, and a glimpse at the conflicted feelings stirred up by one of the most common greetings in the English language. Guys is an easygoing way to address a group of people, but to many, it’s a symbol of exclusion—a word with an originally male meaning that is frequently used to refer to people who don’t consider themselves "guys."
My coworker is one of many who have started editing themselves in response to this exclusion. In the course of reporting this story, I heard from teachers who wanted a better way to get students’ attention, an ice-cream scooper who wanted a better way to greet customers, and a debate coach who specifically encourages his students to use y’all. These are representatives of a broad coalition of people who have contemplated, and often gone through with, excising guys from their vocabularies.
There are, of course, plenty of people—including many women—who have no problem being addressed as “guys,” think the word has evolved to be entirely gender-neutral, and don't see a reason to change their usage. But others aren’t so sure. “I think there's a really serious and welcome reconception of gender lines and relationships between sex and gender going on,” says John McWhorter, who teaches linguistics at Columbia University and has written several books about language. He says “something has crested in particular over about the past 10 years”—something that has people examining their everyday communications.
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In my reporting I heard from several people who said that the word is particularly troubling for trans and gender-nonconforming people. “As a transgender woman, I consciously began trying to stop using guys some years ago,” says Brad Ward, a college counselor at a high school in Atherton, California. She added, “When I’m included with a group that is called guys, there’s some pain, since it takes me back to my male days in a way that I’d rather not go.”
I also heard that guys could grate on women working at male-heavy companies. In tech in particular, some told me they saw the word as yet another symptom of a female-minimizing industry. “There are a lot of guys in tech and ‘guys’ is used all the time in my work and social environments by both men and women, but since it doesn't resonate with me anymore, I do feel like I'm not part of the group,” says Amy Chong, a 29-year-old user-experience researcher in San Francisco.
In some workplaces, people have used technology to gently push back against the gender-neutral guys so that they themselves don’t have to speak up. A group of government employees wrote a custom response for the messaging app Slack that would have a bot ask questions like “Did you mean friends?” or “Did you mean you all?” whenever a user wrote “Hey guys”; a Spotify employee embraced the idea, and the professional network Ladies Get Paid has a similar feature in its Slack group of some 30,000 members.
As these examples indicate, there’s additional scrutiny these days on communications that happen within or emanate from organizations. This is likely why, after I put out calls for opinions on guys, I heard from many people who worked in education or customer-facing jobs. I heard from one teacher who switched to using folks after thinking about the inclusive-learning environment he’d like to create, and another who opted for peeps or scholars. Similarly, an employee at an outdoor-goods store told me that her company’s human-resources department had encouraged the use of more-inclusive terms when addressing customers. “Folks and y’all were determined to be more acceptably neutral and you guys was asked to be toned down,” she said.
Many people are trying to phase guys out of their vocabulary in social settings as well as at work. Coby Joseph, a 26-year-old urban planner currently living in the San Francisco Bay Area, told me that he no longer uses the term after considering “how much of our language centers men”; he found guys “lazy and inconsiderate” and stopped using it four or five years ago, except in cases when he’s communicating with people whom he knows identify as male.
This crowd of guys-objectors is not alone historically. People have been resisting the term for decades, and perhaps the most passionate opponent of the word is Sherryl Kleinman, a former professor of sociology at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. In a 2002 essay in the journal Qualitative Sociology, she wrote about the problem with male-default terms such as “chairman,” “congressman,” and “mankind.” Kleinman saw them together as “another indicator—and, more importantly, a reinforcer—of a system in which ‘man’ in the abstract and men in the flesh are privileged over women.”
She reserved a special disapproval for “you guys,” which she considered the “most insidious” of these phrases, and with the help of former students made a small card that anyone could print out and, for instance, leave behind at a restaurant to communicate their dislike of the term to an employee who had used it. “When you’re talking to a group of customers, gender doesn’t really matter, so why not replace ‘you guys’ with ‘you all,’ ‘folks,’ or ‘y’all,” it reads in part.
Indeed, why not? The problem, for those who want to ditch guys, is that their language doesn’t present them with many versatile replacements; English lacks a standard gender-neutral second-person plural pronoun, like the Spanish ustedes or the German ihr. The alternatives to guys tend to have downsides of their own. Folks—inclusive and warm, but a little affected and forced. Friends—fine in social contexts, strange at work. People—too often pushy and impersonal. Team—its sense of camaraderie wears out with constant use. One might cobble together a mix of pronouns to deploy in different scenarios, but no one term can do it all.
(I also came across some more-obscure alternatives. Some write guise as attempt to de-gender the word; I heard about a socialist political group that preferred comrades; one teacher, to draw attention to the problem with guys, said she sometimes jokingly addresses her class as ladies or gals.)
Which brings us all to y’all, which seems to be the alternative with the most passionate backers. It has many of the necessary features to be the heir to guys—inviting, inclusive, monosyllabic. But what holds it back is its informality, as well as its regional associations, which many don’t know how to handle.
I heard from people born and living outside the South who didn’t feel they could use the term naturally. “They’ll say, ‘y’all’? Are you from Texas?,” one Californian told me; another, who now lives in the Midwest, says she feels “self-conscious saying it as a non-Southerner.” And I heard from a Turkish-born woman living in Los Angeles who “felt a bit choiceless” selecting between guys and y’all after coming to the U.S., because of the gender politics of the former and because she didn’t “have the background to use the latter.” (She lamented that English lacks a gender-neutral second-person plural pronoun, unlike Turkish, her native tongue.)
McWhorter, the Columbia linguist, summed up the downside of y’all by saying, “You can’t use it at a board meeting.” Might it shed its informality if more people adopt it? "That's not going to change,” McWhorter said, “especially because it's associated with two things: the South and black people. And those two things are considered informal, and many people would have less polite things to say about both of those things."
Which is one of the reasons the gender-neutral guys has had such staying power. But over its 400-year lifespan, guy’s meaning has already changed multiple times—getting less specific as time went on. At first, the word’s definition was quite narrow: Guy referred to an effigy of Guy Fawkes, the infamous Brit who tried and failed to blow up the Houses of Parliament in 1605. The word’s meaning radiated outward from there, encompassing larger and larger groups. It started to be used to signify any effigy, then any fearsome person and/or any man. And then, in the plural, it came to mean—in the U.S. sometime around 100 years ago—just about anyone.
Many, perhaps even most, American English speakers view this evolution as a process of shedding gendered connotations. This is the view that McWhorter counsels as a linguist: “People are going to continue referring to women as guys, and a lot of the people doing it are going to be women,” he says.
McWhorter does recognize that even as the word’s meaning has shifted, it retains a certain male “flavor.” In fact, there are some examples in the past of words zigging and zagging in their gender associations. Anatoly Liberman, a linguist at the University of Minnesota, told me about how child started off as a gender-neutral word in Old English, remained so for several centuries, took on a male meaning in Northern England and Scotland, took on a female meaning in other English dialects, and then mostly converged on a neutral meaning again. So, language can change—and change back.
Language evolution tends to be rather random.
McWhorter, though, would not bet on the reformers in this guys debate. He thinks that the gender-neutral guys has irreversible momentum. The question then becomes, he says, “How do we feel about it? And we can express our feelings, but if you don’t want to say it, use folks or people, but everybody's not going to join you. Language changes whether you like it or not."
Even if guys is widely regarded as gender-neutral, there will still be a sizable contingent of conscientious objectors. They argue, not incorrectly, that dropping guys takes very little effort, and any awkwardness that comes with the odd folks or friends or y’all seems far preferable to making a listener feel ignored. (Personally, I’ve come to favor you all, which carries some of the perks of y’all without being tied to any particular region.)
Plenty will disagree with that, and this is the way language evolves—not in an orderly line, but as a messy argument. And that is a blessing—words deserve regular interrogation. One such interrogator is a man working at a pharmaceutical company in New Jersey who had thought deeply about the use of guys in his office. “I honestly think my biggest problem with ‘you guys,’” he wrote to me in an email, “is the plural possessive form that it has spawned.” His example: “Sorry I missed your guys's meeting.” Any reasonable user of language should be able to agree that that phrase is straight-up ugly.
(((((فاعلة خير ..ترجمه الورقة الصفراء الموجودة داخل العلبة ))))) .......... ,. ( كيفية استخدام هذه الحصة التموينية محتويات هذه يمكن أن يكون قد تم اختياره لقيمتها العالية للحفاظ على بقاؤك على قيد الحياة. الحلوى تعطيك الطاقة الغذائية والفيتامينات .... مضغ العلكة تبقي الفم رطب وطازج ......واحد او اتنين من حزم الحلوى والفيتامينات يجب أن تؤكل من قبل رجل واحد كل يوم .يجب استخدام العلكة عند الحاجة ... الطعام هذا يمكن أن يطعم 5او 6 رجال لمدة يوم واحد او رجل واحد لمدة 5 أو 6 ايام . يجب أن يتم حفظها لوقت لاحق يتم بذالك صيد الاسماك ....... لاتفتح علبة أخرى حتى تكمل محتويات هذه العلبة ... حيت يجب عدم السماح لاقراص الحلوى والفيتامينات بالبلل.)
you're gay lol
i miss you
aw buddy, hope you're doing well!
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE is typing...
that's not an answer to my question
please answer the question
What's your favorite animal?
I love you.
What are your thoughts on freedom of speech
I'm fine with it so long as it doesn't hurt my feelers.
i didn't ask for your shit opinion
if there was an "oposite of yourself", how would he/she be? :V
mine would be always negative and sad, he would hate all kind of music/song and art and would hate school and poeples.
in short, some "edgy" negative person
and you? smile is a pretty spicy maymay. I'm going through search lol
pls...say something else than emotes and random stuff it's not even funny
be a bit more normal pls
talk like if you were talking in real life, a normal day
when I see the notification, I am all hyped because it'f fun to talk to poeple on discord. But then it's only you, and i know the conversation will consist in us repeating the same lame stuff over and over.
it's a lame "conversation" everytime
pls stop talking on this server if it's only to express your lack of humour
you two are like full sisters
Did you just assume our gender?
Perhaps in another life, we can be friends...
am i being threatened
ill call off the cops
Well, that's not exactly "I don't see why we can't be friends in the here and now, Guinea," but I'll take it.
Lukaaaa we missed you around here :>
i am always stalking the utopia! and then i just stay on discord haha.
Idk why I always forget about discord
Are you a credible source of information? :3
This is pleasing news~
Lmao, so what's up? xD
oh i never replied to this so i guess i'm not a credible source
not much! i am trying to keep busy. yourself?
You lied to me, Luka. D:
But yeah, nothing much. On summer break at the moment, so learning how to socialise again haha.
sorry! contact your local ombudsman for support and your refund entitlements
Ah yeah I feel you. Socialising is a stressful thing to catch up on, especially after being so used to studying for ages! but it does happen eventually haha. just hang in there :>
How are you?
Ay Luka. Its me Nafchacho. We spoke a couple of times back when I was in Farore. How you doing man?
I was told to thank you a long time ago after Gamtos recommended a dope ass song called Tripping the light fantastic. So thanks, I listen to that shit like everyday almost man. Anyways, seeing hwo you listen to some good stuff and if you have the free time to do so, I would love you to be a part of Sol's Music Exchange program thread: zeldauniverse.net/forums/Threa…ostID=5938871#post5938871 .
i forgot to reply to this
but glad to hear you still like tripping the light fantastic! it was one of my faves and it's still one i put on every now and then. i completely blanked on the thread and time is a bit tight for me right now, but i'll be sure to give it a read over at the very least :>
L u k a :3
haha hi emi :>
Hey-ho Luka Luka!
hi sammy baby xoxo
WE NEVER TALK ANYMORE NOW THAT NO ONE USES SKYPE
I haven't had a computer for ages, so I have to use my terrible excuse for a phone to use Skype, and due to the giant group chats, the insane surge of incoming messages almost instantly crashes my Skype every time.
How have you been anyhow?
Eeep how'd that happen? Do you have one again now? And yeah mobile Skype up until recently's been really shit with the giant groups haha, it's been a mess. But it's better with it these days! Relatively!
I AM kinda good kinda bad! I moved out of the UK last year to Stockholm and I've been kinda unemployed since and yeah!! Not great, but love the city and love my friends here so it's like ehhh what can you do. how about yourself man?
My MacBook decided an eternal existence in my bedroom was not worth it, and gone topped itself. I haven't got a new one yet, waiting for my grant money to come through before I purchase one, currently using my housemates laptop when I can get the chance.
No way! I nearly asked you if you were still in London. What made you move? studies ect. Have you chilled with any of the Swedish ZU'ers?
I'm very well, going into my second year at University, studying film. Recently moved into a new abode with a mate, so things have been tiring, but cool.
Any idea how long you're going to stay in Sweden for?
well what a little shit that MacBook is. But I'm hoping you get to replace it soon enough! And sounds like you've got a good housemate!
Hahaha, yeah though I wish I still were in London. I moved to try get work buuut yeah turns out that wasn't a very smart move. But I have chilled out with a lot of them! I live with Buu and we hangout a lot, and I've been able to meet with some other Swedish ZUers and also a lot of Swedish mates I've made from the last time I was here, and I've gotten to know more people since and yeah. It's pretty cool in that regard at least. :'>
Ayyy that's good to hear! I'm glad it's going along well man! Film sounds intense, I'm gonna pick your brain on it some time and ask what kinda things you've gotten to do at some point haha. And yeah moving is a bitch, I feel you. But how's the location at least? Good?
I'm not honestly sure. I do hope I get work here so that I feel I accomplished something, but I keep to-ing and fro-ing about moving back to the UK because I miss being in my own country where I can actually speak English and can visit family more easily. But unfortunately I don't really know anyone in the UK who can roomie up with me so it's like ughh. I hope at some point I'll be able to move back.
My mafia game happens to have four spots left ~
actually I've noticed that haha! I may consider :>
LUKA MY FRIEND
ALEX DEAR BUDDY (one month later)
IN THE JUNGLE THE MIGHTY JUNGLE LUKA RIDES TONIGHT
Hey man I like your name XD. Mine is Lukas haha.
My name is not Zelda
Dude! I'm so sorry, I totally forgot about Smash. I ended up having to deal with a few things IRL so I wouldn't have been able to play, but I should have let you know. Sorry, man.
Haha, it's alright I'm kinda knackered anyway! Hope things are all good and we can do it maybe some other time before next Wednesday just let me know when
Luka, what's your avatar/sig combo from?
Haha, quite surprisingly I got it from a BBC News article! it was a retelling of a story of a Victorian man cycling furiously away from a lion for.. some reason.
HELLO LUKA. I feel the need to say hi on the ~new zu~
Yeah, but tonight I will have a huuuuge scrapbook post with more deets. It has been amazing
I HOPE YOU LOVE SWEDEN AS MUCH AS I DID
I will never, ever, not find your sig & avatar set to be amazing. It is the best.
Looking forward to your magic. :]
I TAGGED YOU.
don't tickle me in the park