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    The Arbiters Grounds
    • As far as I remember from Ocarina of Time sages aren’t a continuiously held position. A call is sent out from the Sacred Realm to awaken sages when the sacred realm itself it threatened. So pre OoT there would be no sages because it was a time of peace. Ganondorf’s master plan to combat the sages was to corrupt their temples so they couldn’t be awakened, not just kill them.

      As for Rauru, it’s pretty widely accepted that he’s dead, or at least exists in a Phantom astral form. It’s why he needs to be an owl to travel outside the sacred realm. He said himself that his powers were as nothing. I don’t see that exactly being a crack defensive measure against Ganondorf and his minions.
      "The Oathkeeper's Dawn"

      Game In Progress - It has been thirty years since the Dawn of the New Day when without a hero to rescue them champions of the people were forced to rise up and save themselves. Now, on the eve of the 130th Carnival of Time strange rumours circulate the land. Will your wits be enough to discover what has taken hold of the land?

      Any help on this project would be appreciated. I want to make it in Solarus which means a 2D ALttP style. However if you don't want to provide technical help there are a range of pieces to work on. Sprites and artwork, music, level design or if you like simply brainstorming and suggesting alterations to the ideas I have currently compiled would be more than welcome.
    • TriforceHolder wrote:

      As far as I remember from Ocarina of Time sages aren’t a continuiously held position. A call is sent out from the Sacred Realm to awaken sages when the sacred realm itself it threatened. So pre OoT there would be no sages because it was a time of peace. Ganondorf’s master plan to combat the sages was to corrupt their temples so they couldn’t be awakened, not just kill them.

      You're thinking of this prophecy.

      Sheik wrote:

      世界が 魔に支配されし時、聖地からの声に 目覚めし者たち 五つの神殿にあり?
      When the world is ruled by demons, those awakened by a voice from the Sacred Realm will dwell in five temples.
      When evil rules all, an awakening voice from the Sacred Realm will call those destined to be Sages, who dwell in the five temples.


      Pre-TP there wouldn't be an awakening call because evil didn't rule the world. But as there is already a set of sages they must have been already active, not newly awakened.



      As for Rauru, it’s pretty widely accepted that he’s dead, or at least exists in a Phantom astral form. It’s why he needs to be an owl to travel outside the sacred realm. He said himself that his powers were as nothing. I don’t see that exactly being a crack defensive measure against Ganondorf and his minions.
      Not how the game puts it.


      Rauru wrote:

      奴は 聖地の中心… この光の神殿で トライフォースを 手に入れ、その力で 魔王となったのじゃ。
      He acquired the Triforce in the center of this Sacred Land...in this Temple of Light. And with that power he became the Maou.
      He obtained the Triforce from the Temple of Light, and with its power, he became the King of Evil...

      奴の魔力は 神殿を通して流れ出し、わずか 七年で ハイラル全土を 魔物の国と 変えてしもうた…
      His magic power continued to flow out of the temples and in only seven years the entire land of Hyrule was turned into a land of monsters...
      His evil power radiated from the temples of Hyrule, and in seven short years, it transformed Hyrule into a world of monsters.

      もはや この聖地でさえ ワシの力が およぶ場所は、ごく わずかな場所…
      Already, even in this Sacred Land, my power has but a very limited reach...
      My power now has only little influence, even in this Sacred Realm...

      この 賢者の間だけに すぎぬ。 しかし、希望は ある… 我らには 賢者の力が 残っておる!
      It extends no further than this Room of Sages. But there is still hope... The power of the Sages remains!
      Namely, this Chamber of Sages. But there is still hope... The power of the Sages remains.


      His powers are only limited due to Ganondorf claiming a Triforce piece. As going up against a foe without the Triforce would be a different matter entirely it would be safe to say he could protect it just fine.
    • Evran_Speer wrote:

      I think everyone here agrees that the Interloper War probably happened during the Era of Chaos? With that in mind, I think Arbiter's Grounds was most likely built during or shortly after the Interloper War, and housed the Mirror since that time.

      Fal Cie wrote:

      The Sages had it and were tasked with guarding it from unsavory characters like Ganondorf.

      :ghirahim: That !

      And let's not forget Stallord and Death Sword, those two demons ..
      The Gerudo depicted Stallord on some Walls (holding some sort of Trident).

      The Hylians actually fought Stallord, it means that the time when the Gerudo depicted it and when he was fought by the Hylians were close.
    • TriforceHolder wrote:

      @Setras I always headcanonned that the Zuna were the descendants of the Interlopers that didn't turn of Hyrule during the Imprisoning War. Though I suppose that's assuming that the Interlopers were actually a distinct race rather than just powerful Hylian spellcasters who were transformed by the twilight after banishment.

      This has basically been my headcanon for a while too, specifically that the ancestors of the Zuna were among the Interlopers, but split off from them at the last moment to assist in their sealing, becoming the Zuna/Zonai after the fact. The Interlopers themselves, meanwhile, strike me more as renegade Sheikah, given a like-looking emblem on the Fused Shadow and their overall, well, shadow associations.

      This would help to explain why Stallord is depicted with a trident, i.e. it's the Trident of Power, and why the Sages are left in charge of the place- the Zuna were trusted enough to help contain their traitorous allies' weapons, but not wholly trusted to be around the key to their prison, i.e. the Mirror of Twilight.
      Wither and decay... End this destiny... Break these earthly chains and set the spirit free...

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Setras ().

    • Fal Cie wrote:

      Pre-TP there wouldn't be an awakening call because evil didn't rule the world. But as there is already a set of sages they must have been already active, not newly awakened.

      Pre-TP of course there must have been an awakening call given that we see a new set of sages. However that's quite irrelevant as we see those sages at a time that by all indication had to be at least ten years after OoT given Ganondorf's clear age and the fact that they weren't the OoT sages. The timeframe in which Ganondorf had access to the Arbiter's Grounds was essentially his entire life. While we don't know exact dates that has to be twenty to forty years between his birth and his execution. Given the Sacred Realm wasn't threatened pre-OoT, a sages call had to be sent in response to the crisis during OoT and the apparent peace Hyrule was at, there can't have been sages at that time. A time when Ganondorf looks to be about thirty. So he essentially had access to the Grounds for decades.

      As for Rauru, given the age he comes from I do think he's an astral spirit but even if you don't accept that after building the Temple of Time he stood vigil over the Triforce in the Temple of Light. The ToT being the only entrance and the lock against evildoers wanting to take the Triforce he couldn't simply be going in and out at his leisure. That would put the Triforce at huge risk as no one would need to open the ToT the proper way with the Spiritual Stones if they could just wait for the times when Rauru left to check on the Mirror of Twilight. Even if you believe he pulled double duty that means that the Mirror was left unguarded for long periods of time.

      Setras wrote:

      This has basically been my headcanon for a while too, specifically that the ancestors of the Zuna were among the Interlopers, but split off from them at the last moment to assist in their sealing, becoming the Zuna/Zonai after the fact. The Interlopers themselves, meanwhile, strike me more as renegade Sheikah, given a like-looking emblem on the Fused Shadow and their overall, well, shadow associations.

      This would help to explain why Stallord is depicted with a trident, i.e. it's the Trident of Power, and why the Sages are left in charge of the place- the Zuna were trusted enough to help contain their traitorous allies' weapons, but not wholly trusted to be around the key to their prison, i.e. the Mirror of Twilight.

      I always thought the Trident of Power was essentially the Fused Shadows' counterpart. The Shadows when fully assembled appear as a massive helmet not unlike those that Zant and the Shadow Beasts wear into battle. It would make sense then that it had a weapon pair, offense and defense. Of course with such intense magic even the defensive artifact had massive offensive potential.
      "The Oathkeeper's Dawn"

      Game In Progress - It has been thirty years since the Dawn of the New Day when without a hero to rescue them champions of the people were forced to rise up and save themselves. Now, on the eve of the 130th Carnival of Time strange rumours circulate the land. Will your wits be enough to discover what has taken hold of the land?

      Any help on this project would be appreciated. I want to make it in Solarus which means a 2D ALttP style. However if you don't want to provide technical help there are a range of pieces to work on. Sprites and artwork, music, level design or if you like simply brainstorming and suggesting alterations to the ideas I have currently compiled would be more than welcome.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by TriforceHolder ().

    • TriforceHolder wrote:

      Pre-TP of course there must have been an awakening call given that we see a new set of sages. However that's quite irrelevant as we see those sages at a time that by all indication had to be at least ten years after OoT given Ganondorf's clear age and the fact that they weren't the OoT sages. The timeframe in which Ganondorf had access to the Arbiter's Grounds was essentially his entire life. While we don't know exact dates that has to be twenty to forty years between his birth and his execution. Given the Sacred Realm wasn't threatened pre-OoT, a sages call had to be sent in response to the crisis during OoT and the apparent peace Hyrule was at, there can't have been sages at that time. A time when Ganondorf looks to be about thirty. So he essentially had access to the Grounds for decades.

      The condition is for 'demons to rule the world' for sages to be awakened, it's doubtful that such a criteria was fulfilled in the CT after Link returned from the future.
      It could easily apply pre-OoT when the Interlopers were such a threat that they required divine intervention.
      There is no indication that the Gerudo had current access to the mirror, being involved with it in the past doesn't mean the duty was eternal.


      As for Rauru, given the age he comes from I do think he's an astral spirit but even if you don't accept that after building the Temple of Time he stood vigil over the Triforce in the Temple of Light. The ToT being the only entrance and the lock against evildoers wanting to take the Triforce he couldn't simply be going in and out at his leisure. That would put the Triforce at huge risk as no one would need to open the ToT the proper way with the Spiritual Stones if they could just wait for the times when Rauru left to check on the Mirror of Twilight. Even if you believe he pulled double duty that means that the Mirror was left unguarded for long periods of time.


      His exact living status is irrelevant, he still has the power of the sage of light.
      I don't know where you're getting this interpretation, he was not tasked with protecting the Triforce. That is what the the locks on the Door of time and the Master Sword are for, he wouldn't hold a constant vigil over it.
      He wouldn't need to constantly be there in person to guard the mirror either, the sages show up moments after the mirror is unearthed. They must have a method of knowing when it is exposed before teleporting in.
      And of course these are clearly not the actual bodies of the sages, presumably they are akin to astral projections or soul splits(bunshins I think they're called in the Japanese script), like Kaepora Gaebora, Ciela or Aghanim.

      You also still haven't explained why a statue of the goddess of the sands sits atop the Arbiters Grounds, if the top section was made by Hylian builders alone.
      Or why the sages would bring the mirror with them to an entirely new prison.
    • Fal Cie wrote:

      The condition is for 'demons to rule the world' for sages to be awakened, it's doubtful that such a criteria was fulfilled in the CT after Link returned from the future.

      It could easily apply pre-OoT when the Interlopers were such a threat that they required divine intervention.

      There is no indication that the Gerudo had current access to the mirror, being involved with it in the past doesn't mean the duty was eternal.

      Actually, if you wouldn't mind reading your own quotes more carefully, the condition is "When evil rules all". assuming even the smallest amount of poetic license to that criteria (as waiting for the bad guys to have already won before sending out for the elite troops seems monumentally incompetent) then the war Ganondorf waged against Hyrule following his exposure in the child timeline would most definitely qualify for a sages' awakening.

      The Interloper War predated OoT by hundreds of years. If there had been sages left over from it we wouldn't have needed those in OoT, the group would have already been assembled and we could have gone straight to Ganondorf's Tower.

      I never said the Gerudo had a duty to it. I said they lived within spitting distance of it while it was completely unguarded. The desert belonged to the Gerudo, there was no Hylian presence there. So if the Mirror was kept in the desert and as you yourself most astutely pointed out it having been moved there makes no sense then the Gerudo had access to it whether they were supposed to or not.

      Fal Cie wrote:


      His exact living status is irrelevant, he still has the power of the Sage of Light.

      I don't know where you're getting this interpretation, he was not tasked with protecting the Triforce. That is what the the locks on the Door of Time and the Master Sword are for, he wouldn't hold a constant vigil over it.

      He wouldn't need to constantly be there in person to guard the Mirror either, the sages show up moments after the mirror is unearthed. They must have a method of knowing when it is exposed before teleporting in.

      And of course these are clearly not the actual bodies of the sages, presumably they are akin to astral projections or soul splits(bunshins I think they're called in the Japanese script), like Kaepora Gaebora, Ciela or Aghanim.

      You also still haven't explained why a statue of the Goddess of the Sands sits atop the Arbiter's Grounds, if the top section was made by Hylian builders alone.

      Or why the sages would bring the Mirror with them to an entirely new prison.

      And what powers would those be exactly? By all the indications we have the Sages powers are worth nothing without a complete set. They work as a group or not at all. Which explains why the Twilight Princess Sages were so useless. When they lost the Sage of Water they lost all but the most minor of magical abilities.

      Hyrule Historia wrote:

      "The Triforce was placed in the Temple of Light, located in the Sacred Realm, which was now isolated from Hyrule. Protecting the Triforce in the Temple of Light, Rauru became the guardian of the power of the gods."

      Who says they teleported in? As sages their duty is to protect the Triforce and the Sacred Realm. They failed and the Triforce of Power ended up in the hands of a war criminal, the Triforce of Courage was lost while the Triforce of Wisdom painted a huge target on Hyrule. After that they had one duty. To ensure that the tyrant they had failed to execute remained sealed away by guarding the Mirror of Twilight. Given as we see them fade away it's more likely that they were simply invisible and watching over the Mirror the entire time.

      Then what powers would these shells have? Ciela lost all her magic in her bunshin form. Kaepora Gaebora could only ever relay information. Aghanim is the only bunshin we've ever seen as a real threat and he was created by a Triforce piece which would dwarf a proper Sage by a mile. He was only a fraction of Ganon's true strength. So what good exactly would a Sage bunshin be, operating at an infinitesimal amount of actual sage magic. Twinrova could probably have taken the Mirror at that point let alone adding Ganondorf's sorcerous abilities, his loyal Gerudo and quite possibly a great deal of Iron Knuckles.

      Could you please work on your reading comprehension? Please. The thing where you ask something, I answer it, you don't respond to that part, then four posts later you ask the question again is really really annoying.

      TriforceHolder wrote:

      The Gerudo can't have existed as a unique race since ancient Hylian times, the nature of their reproduction means death within a generation so they can't have evolved. Which means that whatever created the Gerudo (I always assumed a curse) came later. When this happened and they took up residence in the desert the Spirit Temple would most likely have been a bastion of safety. A well constructed building and given its remote location probably severely under defended. Over the course of generations the Gerudo transform this Hylian structure into the Desert Colossus, building complex mechanisms and statues to their own deity, the Goddess of the Sands. As for the Mirror of Twilight, which must have still been present, if the keeper of the temple knew it was about to fall sealing the Mirror Chamber with say a collapsed passage (as the Temple was largely a subterranean structure at this time) would be the most prudent move to keep it out of unknown hands.

      TriforceHolder wrote:

      As for the statue of the Goddess of the Sands at the top of the Grounds, there is an intricate spinner mechanism built into that statue. If the statue itself remained in tact during the siege and the Hylians wanted to reinstall it in a new capacity later they may not have wanted to risk damaging the mechanism simply to get rid of the Goddess of the Sands' image.
      "The Oathkeeper's Dawn"

      Game In Progress - It has been thirty years since the Dawn of the New Day when without a hero to rescue them champions of the people were forced to rise up and save themselves. Now, on the eve of the 130th Carnival of Time strange rumours circulate the land. Will your wits be enough to discover what has taken hold of the land?

      Any help on this project would be appreciated. I want to make it in Solarus which means a 2D ALttP style. However if you don't want to provide technical help there are a range of pieces to work on. Sprites and artwork, music, level design or if you like simply brainstorming and suggesting alterations to the ideas I have currently compiled would be more than welcome.
    • TriforceHolder wrote:

      Actually, if you wouldn't mind reading your own quotes more carefully, the condition is "When evil rules all". assuming even the smallest amount of poetic license to that criteria (as waiting for the bad guys to have already won before sending out for the elite troops seems monumentally incompetent) then the war Ganondorf waged against Hyrule following his exposure in the child timeline would most definitely qualify for a sages' awakening.
      Uh, this your first time dealing with translations?

      In my source first was the original Japanese.

      '世界が 魔に支配されし時、聖地からの声に 目覚めし者たち 五つの神殿にあり?'

      Then the version provided by one of the translators from this site.

      'When the world is ruled by demons, those awakened by a voice from the Sacred Realm will dwell in five temples.'

      Finally the version seen in the localized game.

      'When evil rules all, an awakening voice from the Sacred Realm will call those destined to be Sages, who dwell in the five temples.'

      The second would be the more accurate, so I was referring to the truer text.

      In any case, as Ganondorf did not reach the same level of notoriety in the CT I would argue no awakening call was sent out.

      The Interloper War predated OoT by hundreds of years. If there had been sages left over from it we wouldn't have needed those in OoT, the group would have already been assembled and we could have gone straight to Ganondorf's Tower.
      Part of the theory passed around is that these sages were active during OoT, but they were killed leaving Rauru as the sole survivor, necessitating the new batch to be awakened.



      I never said the Gerudo had a duty to it. I said they lived within spitting distance of it while it was completely unguarded. The desert belonged to the Gerudo, there was no Hylian presence there. So if the Mirror was kept in the desert and as you yourself most astutely pointed out it having been moved there makes no sense then the Gerudo had access to it whether they were supposed to or not.

      Yes, if it were unguarded they would have access to it.



      And what powers would those be exactly? By all the indications we have the Sages powers are worth nothing without a complete set. They work as a group or not at all. Which explains why the Twilight Princess Sages were so useless. When they lost the Sage of Water they lost all but the most minor of magical abilities.
      If they don't have powers unless all are present there wouldn't be any point in tasking them with guarding the mirror moments after one of them died, would there?

      Thank you for providing the Historia quote, it's good to know the full detail. I would still maintain that he can monitor Hyrule for periods of time while trusting the other locks to hold.


      Who says they teleported in? As sages their duty is to protect the Triforce and the Sacred Realm. They failed and the Triforce of Power ended up in the hands of a war criminal, the Triforce of Courage was lost while the Triforce of Wisdom painted a huge target on Hyrule. After that they had one duty. To ensure that the tyrant they had failed to execute remained sealed away by guarding the Mirror of Twilight. Given as we see them fade away it's more likely that they were simply invisible and watching over the Mirror the entire time.


      We know they can teleport from OoT. As we haven't seen them turn invisible I wouldn't immediately assume they have that power.


      Then what powers would these shells have? Ciela lost all her magic in her bunshin form. Kaepora Gaebora could only ever relay information. Aghanim is the only bunshin we've ever seen as a real threat and he was created by a Triforce piece which would dwarf a proper Sage by a mile. He was only a fraction of Ganon's true strength. So what good exactly would a Sage bunshin be, operating at an infinitesimal amount of actual sage magic. Twinrova could probably have taken the Mirror at that point let alone adding Ganondorf's sorcerous abilities, his loyal Gerudo and quite possibly a great deal of Iron Knuckles.

      Granted I can't speak to the full range of power of a regular bunshin, I won't push this.

      Could you please work on your reading comprehension? Please. The thing where you ask something, I answer it, you don't respond to that part, then four posts later you ask the question again is really really annoying.
      Sorry it slipped my mind and thanks for the reminder.



      The Gerudo can't have existed as a unique race since ancient Hylian times, the nature of their reproduction means death within a generation so they can't have evolved. Which means that whatever created the Gerudo (I always assumed a curse) came later. When this happened and they took up residence in the desert the Spirit Temple would most likely have been a bastion of safety. A well constructed building and given its remote location probably severely under defended. Over the course of generations the Gerudo transform this Hylian structure into the Desert Colossus, building complex mechanisms and statues to their own deity, the Goddess of the Sands. As for the Mirror of Twilight, which must have still been present, if the keeper of the temple knew it was about to fall sealing the Mirror Chamber with say a collapsed passage (as the Temple was largely a subterranean structure at this time) would be the most prudent move to keep it out of unknown hands.
      I don't think there's any reason to say that they couldn't have existed since ancient times. Their entire existence at any point in time requires suspension of disbelief.
      In any case you're proposing they found an ancient prison, turned it into a temple, until eventually it was turned back into a prison.
      And when we see it as a temple there is no remnant of the prison elements, likewise when we see it as a prison there is no remnant of the temple elements.

      As for the statue of the Goddess of the Sands at the top of the Grounds, there is an intricate spinner mechanism built into that statue. If the statue itself remained in tact during the siege and the Hylians wanted to reinstall it in a new capacity later they may not have wanted to risk damaging the mechanism simply to get rid of the Goddess of the Sands' image.
      So originally there was a mechanism to hide the mirror that used the spinner, built by the original Hylians based on the spinner tracks in the Temple of Time and City in the Sky, which then had the Gerudo Goddess carved into it which the Hylians decided would be too hard to remove. This after apparently building atop a ruined temple.

      I can only tell you how unlikely these scenarios would appear to be to me.
    • The Ancient Sages are not Sages, they were sages in ancient times, they are weaker than the actual sages, now they are the guardians of the mirror.
      They are more like Spirits with a body made of Light.

      Rauru became the Sage of Light and thus kept his form, the previous Sage of Light of the Ancient Sages still exist while Rauru exist too, since this one is not a Sage of Light anymore.
      Something like the Hero's Shade, he's not a Hero anymore but was one.

      There are no reasons for Ganondorf to attack them, even if the Arbiter's Grounds belongs to Hylians and was in Gerudo Territory.
      The Ancient Sages had their Sword to defend it from intruders, the entrance was also guarded by those four poes and the Gibdo knights that were keeping away the intruders.

      At that Time, Gerudo Desert was also covered by that Sandstorm protecting the way to the Spirit Temple.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Nonoctoro ().

    • Sorry to throw in a curve-ball but...has anyone considered that the Arbiter's Grounds might just be a development of the Gerudo Training Ground from Ocarina of Time? :arch:

      We already seem to agree that the Arbiter's Grounds exists just behind what appears to be the remains of Gerudo Fortress and therefore was probably built on those foundations. Then, there's also the name link between Arbiter's Grounds and Gerudo Training Ground. Perhaps the Hylians claimed ownership of the Training Ground and re-purposed it as an Execution Ground?

      The Spirit Temple claim is one I find hard to believe due to vast differences in their structural designs and location. People just seem to say 'Any desert dungeon = Spirit Temple' without putting much thought into it.

      For starters, the whole Haunted Wasteland which existed between Gerudo Fortress and Desert Colossus seems strangely absent if we follow the assumption that Arbiter's Grounds is the Spirit Temple and those ruins in front of it are the Gerudo Fortress.
    • I don't see the Spirit Temple as being the Arbiters Grounds. They share the same biome and a few generic female statues, big whoop. They however don't share the general relative location to Snowpeak/Hebra and share no similar puzzles or really architecture. I also don't buy that there was a Gerudo-Hylian War. This is essentially a headcanon brought up as canon lore by the fandom at large but there's nothing to really support it, and a "band of thrives" doesn't have to equal all Gerudo in existence...it in fact doesn't even have to refer to the Gerudo at all, as Ganondorf doesn't just lead the Gerudo but also a whole legion of monsters...which could easily be seen as his "band of thieves." Likewise even if there were some Gerudo involved in his attempt to take the Sacred Realm we can't say that it was largely only Gerudo and thus we really can't call it a Gerudo Hylian war since its not like even in OOT they're shown to be war hungry or blood thirsty as even in that game they're shown to be reasonable and not in search for a fight which makes the idea that they'd follow Ganondorf into war is a stretch.

      Basically I see the Arbiters Grounds as a area built by Hylians and Gerudo before the Civil War that largely went forgot about till Ganondorf's execution. No one but the sages knew about it.
    • The Gossip Stone wrote:

      Then, there's also the name link between Arbiter's Grounds and Gerudo Training Ground.

      It doens't work in Japanese ゲルドの修練場 "Gerudo no Shūrenba" 砂漠の処刑場 "Sabaku no Shokeijō"
      Maybe if you translate 場 as Ground, but that's just a place where you do something particular, training and execution are two very different things.

      The name of this place surely came from Ganondorf, this is the place where Ganondorf was executed.
    • I generally take the middle road on the "Gerudo-Hylian War." There is evidence for a conflict. The original valley pass from Hyrule to Gerudo Desert has been closed, and HH mentions that Hylian-Gerudo relations "had become friendly once more," implying a period of unfriendliness. Plus, it isn't hard to imagine that the Gerudo King attacking Hyrule would inspire some animosity. That being said, it's a leap from unfriendliness to war or genocide, and I'm not sure why not seeing people despite not going to the place where live is so often taken as evidence that they're all dead.

      Speaking of which, @The Gossip Stone what makes those ruins Gerudo Fortress? It seems a bit deep in the desert for that, and not really the same layout.
      Goddess of the Sands

      Map of Thyphlo Ruins

      Forest Architects

      If you have Amiibo Tap: Nintendo's Greatest Bits on Wii U, you can reset which games your amiibo unlock by deleting the game and then redownloading it.
    • No one is saying that they're ALL dead. But the fact that the only surviving structure in the desert is a Hyrulian run prison, and they are no where to be seen means something did happen to them. Given that the Sages report Ganondorf invading Hyrule it can be assumed that at least some of his forces came from his own people. The most likely conclusion to draw from that is that a great number of the Gerudo were slaughtered and the remainder fled the desert to avoid the same fate. I doubt they're all dead but the evidence does suggest that a good chunk of them died.
      "The Oathkeeper's Dawn"

      Game In Progress - It has been thirty years since the Dawn of the New Day when without a hero to rescue them champions of the people were forced to rise up and save themselves. Now, on the eve of the 130th Carnival of Time strange rumours circulate the land. Will your wits be enough to discover what has taken hold of the land?

      Any help on this project would be appreciated. I want to make it in Solarus which means a 2D ALttP style. However if you don't want to provide technical help there are a range of pieces to work on. Sprites and artwork, music, level design or if you like simply brainstorming and suggesting alterations to the ideas I have currently compiled would be more than welcome.
    • gamtos wrote:

      Evran Speer wrote:

      I'm not sure why not seeing people despite not going to the place where live is so often taken as evidence that they're all dead
      Well, we travel what we assume is the entirety of Hyrule every time. Kinda hard to swallow folks can go where we can't.
      Really? I tend to assume that there are smaller villages we don't see that are either considered part of Hyrule or merely in Hyrule's orbit like Ordon Village.

      TriforceHolder wrote:

      No one is saying that they're ALL dead. But the fact that the only surviving structure in the desert is a Hyrulian run prison, and they are no where to be seen means something did happen to them. Given that the Sages report Ganondorf invading Hyrule it can be assumed that at least some of his forces came from his own people. The most likely conclusion to draw from that is that a great number of the Gerudo were slaughtered and the remainder fled the desert to avoid the same fate. I doubt they're all dead but the evidence does suggest that a good chunk of them died.
      Admittedly, I used the most extreme position to make my point.

      I agree with some of what you said. Ganondorf attacked Hyrule and he almost certainly had Gerudo helping him, if only Koume, Kotake, and the at least one Iron Knuckle they had at that point. He seems to favor using monsters, but if he's more desperate in the CT, he's also more likely to drag his own people into it. The fact that they aren't see in TP implies at least that they aren't closely involved with Hyrule. The fact that we see them later in FSA, deeper in the desert, implies that at least some of them survived and simply lived further away from Hyrule.

      I'm just skeptical about the "great number" of Gerudo who were "slaughtered." Hyrule's armor would have a hard time pressing any offense against the Gerudo. The road from Hyrule Field to Gerudo Fortress is bottlenecked through Gerudo Valley, particularly at the bridge which the Gerudo keep guarded at all times and are willing to destroy if necessary. And once the Gerudo decide to flee into the desert, they're protected by a magical sandstorm. Hyrule is much better off simply blockading the desert. That would cut off the Gerudos' supply of the resources they steal from Hyrule. Thus, the Gerudo presumably disappear into the desert to find another source. Auru tells us that "the road leading to the desert is impassable," so most likely one side or the other destroyed the bridge or otherwise blocked the valley.

      Thus, the only Gerudo who are likely to have died are the ones who directly participated in Ganon's attack, and we have no way of knowing how many there were or how many of those may have escaped. (Since they're thieves, they're probably better at stealth operations than direct combat anyway.) He's likely to employ his own people for the attack, but the Gerudo are thieves. They're probably better used in covert operations than direct combat, especially when Ganon has access to the likes of Ghoma and King Dondongo, which could potentially dominate a battlefield on their own.

      Arbiter's Grounds being "the only surviving structure in the desert" isn't quite known to be true, either. We already agree that there are Gerudo surviving off-screen in the desert, so it's possible that the Spirit Temple or some other structure survived as well. Besides, Gerudo Fortress isn't even really in the desert; it's at the border of the desert and the valley, so we can't be sure what state it's in in TP.
      Goddess of the Sands

      Map of Thyphlo Ruins

      Forest Architects

      If you have Amiibo Tap: Nintendo's Greatest Bits on Wii U, you can reset which games your amiibo unlock by deleting the game and then redownloading it.
    • My counterpoint to that would be Arbiter's Grounds itself. We can all agree that it is at the very least a Hyrulian run prison. Which means that Hyrule's forces penetrated pretty far into the desert. As you said the only entrance to Gerudo Desert is their fortress. Which means that Gerudo Fortress fell to Hyrulian forces. You'll find very few civilizations throughout history that would abandon their capitol and home at the possibility of danger so the logical conclusion to draw is that there was a battle at Gerudo Fortress and the Gerudo lost. These wouldn't have even had to be Ganondorf loyalists. Racial divides are often completely glossed over in times of war and the fact that Ganondorf and I'd wager at least a small fraction of his forces were Gerudo would be enough for Hyrule to turn on them in a militaristic fashion. I don't think there was a Gerudo genocide but I do think that Hyrule torched their civilization and drove the survivors so deep in the desert they'd never bother Hyrule again.
      "The Oathkeeper's Dawn"

      Game In Progress - It has been thirty years since the Dawn of the New Day when without a hero to rescue them champions of the people were forced to rise up and save themselves. Now, on the eve of the 130th Carnival of Time strange rumours circulate the land. Will your wits be enough to discover what has taken hold of the land?

      Any help on this project would be appreciated. I want to make it in Solarus which means a 2D ALttP style. However if you don't want to provide technical help there are a range of pieces to work on. Sprites and artwork, music, level design or if you like simply brainstorming and suggesting alterations to the ideas I have currently compiled would be more than welcome.