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    Demise and The Imprisoned make no sense, at all.
    • Link defeated Demise in the past with the Master Sword. And he was sealed within, according to Fi.

      The game begins in the present, with the Goddess Sword and The Imprisoned.

      There is no logical way the Imprisoned could be in the present if Demise was defeated in the past.

      It makes zero sense.

      Not to mention the Imprisoned ate Zelda, turned into Demise, got defeated in the past, and somehow was the Imprisoned again in the present.

      Let's debate.
    • Makes no sense. So what, the Master Sword turned into the Goddess Sword, and Demise escaped, was sealed by Impa with the spike only to break free and turn back into Demise and be sealed in the sword that shouldn't have even existed at the time?

      The Goddess Sword came first. Not the Master Sword.

      Yet, it was the Master Sword that defeated Demise, in the past.

      I just wrecked the SS storyline.
      :ghirahim: :cucco: :look: :tingle: :moon:

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Guinea ().

    • Ok, sorry for the double post. The only way I could make sense of this (and it still makes no sense) is to start from the beginning:

      Demise beats Hylia.

      BOOM! Demise is defeated by Link who came from the future with the Master Sword that shouldn't have even existed at the time (or Link for that matter) and Demise was sealed in the Master Sword after Ghirahim appeared in the past and ressurected him using Zelda (who also shouldn't have even existed at that time) by feeding her to The Imprisoned, who, you guessed it, shouldn't have existed anyway because Demise (who, now that I think about it, shouldn't have even existed either) was already defeated AFTER he became the Imprisoned in the present.

      (*takes a breath*)

      Already this is off to a rocky start. And I'm sleepy, so I'm probably getting things wrong, but still, the absurdity is so apparent it hurts, because despite whatever flaws I may have thrown in, this time travel stuff is just... absurd.

      Anyway, Demise is sealed, the Master Sword and Zelda are locked away, begin SS:

      Everything in Skyward Sword happens, the Goddess Sword turns into the Master Sword, Ghirahim goes into the past to revive Demise, Link follows him, seals him in the sword, he breaks out, becomes the Imprisoned, yadda yadda yadda, somehow there's a happy ending without an endless loop happening of the Goddess Sword turning into the Master Sword, sealing Demise, letting him break out as the Imprisoned just to go back to being Demise and...

      Wtf.
      :ghirahim: :cucco: :look: :tingle: :moon:

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Guinea ().

    • Guinea wrote:

      True, true.

      Still, this has plot hole written all over it.
      Not a plot hole. A paradox.

      Simple explanation is SS is one big pre-destination paradox/causality loop. There's only 1 timeline. It's said repeatedly in SS (especially at the beginning) that this legend (the one we are playing) will fill in the gaps of the Legend the Skyloftians know. All that was missing was Link and Zelda playing their parts. Evidence of the pre-destination paradox comes from old Impa having Zelda's goddess bracelet, when we first enter the sealed temple. From Impa's POV, she's already lived to see Demise smited in the past but hasn't seen him (the Imprisoned) die in her future.


      Think Terminator 1, for pre-destination example. It starts with Skynet losing the war, so they send a terminator back to the 80s to kill Sarah Connor. Before she gives birth to John. John Connor of 2029 sends Kyle Reese (his biological father) back to 1984 to protect his mother, Sarah. Kyle tells Sarah about the rise of the machines, judgement day and Skynet. Kyle and Sarah rock the casbah and Sarah is impregnated with John. The terminator is destroyed but his arm and computer chip are recovered and experimented on by Cyberdyne. Cyberdyne who in 10 years would created Skynet.

      See the problem? In an attempt to change history, Skynet created both itself and it's own nemesis. But without time travel, neither could exist.

      Same with SS. Because of the time travel mechanics, Demise is still alive in the present when Link first arrives at the sealed temple. Because Link hasn't yet traveled to the past to beat him. It's a future version of Link with the Master Sword that beats Demise. The Master Sword doesn't exist yet when Link lands on the surface. Skyward Sword's story needs time travel to work.
    • Yeah except we plant the tree of life and cause it to exist in a place it didn't.

      Skyward Sword has the same issue Ocarina of Time has - it uses stable time loops alongside alternate timelines in the same universe.
      It's both Terminator in how Impa stays, the Butterfly Effect in how the Tree of Life grows, and Back to the Future in how the world starts shaking in the future just because Demise is being revived in the past.
    • Nitro Indigo wrote:

      Also, in ExoParadigmGamer's review of Skyward Sword, he asks that if the sealing pit is shaped to fit the Isle of the Goddess, it clearly means that Hylia planned to kill Demise that way, so why didn't she do it sooner?
      The sealing pit is shaped to fit the Isle of the Goddess because it was formed when Hylia raised the Isle of the Goddess out of the ground and into the sky. If lowering the statue again were sufficient to kill Demise, I think she would have done it a long time ago. But then, maybe it would have killedhim, but that's as temporary a solution as sealing him was. No matter how many times Ganon dies, he keeps coming back. Maybe the same would have happened with Demise were he killed by conventional means rather than with a Triforce wish for his complete annihilation.
      Goddess of the Sands

      Map of Thyphlo Ruins

      Forest Architects

      If you have Amiibo Tap: Nintendo's Greatest Bits on Wii U, you can reset which games your amiibo unlock by deleting the game and then redownloading it.
    • The "Two Master Swords existing at once" thing, even if in different forms, reminds me of the timeline fuckery in Legacy of Kain caused by the Soul Reavers meeting.

      In OoT, it's possible that after Link pulled the Master Sword and went back, his other self was actually in the Sacred Realm with the Master Sword, and the two objects existing at the same time caused the time inconsistencies. Same with Skyward Sword. Thus when Link returns to the past, he has something resembling free will while the rest of Hyrule walks on a now predestined, set path caused by the time loop. Something similar may have happened in Skyward Sword, but we haven't seen the ultimate result.

      I'm not going to go too deep into that, I don't know the intricacies of time physics, I'm just pulling from Legacy of Kain to explain things as I often do when I don't understand something.
    • I always look at it like this:

      Series precedent on time travel
      -In OoT, the Song of Storms situation- Link learns the Song from the Windmill Man as he grumbles about the "mean kid" who once played it, then goes back in time and as a kid plays the Song for the WM, in turn allowing the WM to teach it to him seven years layer- establishes that Bootstrap Paradoxes (an endless loop) can occur, and situations like these, where nothing is actually "changed" and causality still happens, would logically be the norm and keep everything on one timeline.

      -However, in OoT's ending (and given later details given to us in WW, TP, and HH), Link is sent back in time from a future where Ganondorf took over, and then stops that takeover by getting Ganondorf arrested. But how, then, would Link be sent back from the takeover future? He couldn't be- but then the takeover would never be thwarted, and thus Link would eventually be sent back and stop it, etc., etc., ad infinitum. This is a textbook example of a Grandfather Paradox, where changes made to the past prevent the circumstances that caused the time travel. To get around it, either time travel has to be impossible (not viable), such contradictory situations must never be allowed to happen and thus only give us time loops (again, not viable), or the timeline must split and generate two parallel universes- the "original" where the time traveler was sent from, and another where the "changes" they made were allowed to happen and lead to a new future. We can see that the latter happened due to the AT/CT split (itself corroborated by both WW and MM/TP happening).

      -Thus, we have series precedent that time loops will occur where possible, and splits will occur where not.


      How this relates to SS
      -We can see Zelda's crystal tomb from the beginning of the game through the crack in the Sealed Temple's back door, establishing quite nicely that predestination a la the Song of Storms situation is in play.

      -In the final act, The Imprisoned (i.e. Demise) is destroyed with the Triforce in the present, and prior to that point had been fought three times. Ghirahim then goes back in time and frees him, but Link then defeats him and seals him in the Master Sword. Thus those Imprisoned fights and its defeat should never happen, but if they never do, Ghirahim never goes back in time to resurrect Demise there. As with the AT/CT split, a Grandfather Paradox occurs here, and thus the same logical result would happen, i.e. a timeline split. This would give us what I like to refer to as the "Sound" timeline (i.e. the timeline where The Imprisoned was defeated in the present with the Triforce, and wherein the rest of the series and the subsequent other timelines take place), and the "Unsound" timeline (i.e. the timeline where Demise was defeated in the past, which as-yet we have yet to explore.
    • @Guinea I was interested in playing the Legacy of Kain remake at one point.

      @Evran_Speer Now that you mention it, that's what I thought when I first played Skyward Sword. I'd say that Demise wouldn't come back because he hadn't made the curse yet, except that he made the curse in the past... Wibbly... Wobbly... Timey... Wimey...
    • Okay, so here's my own explanation for SS's time travel

      There are elements of a time loop throughout the game:
      • Old Impa has the bracelet from the start of the game that Zelda gives to Young Impa at the end of the game.
      • There is a Zelda sealed in the temple from the start of the game, even though current Zelda hasn't gone back in time to seal herself yet.
      • There is some evidence of past events being known before the game starts: Skyloft has a legend about the goddess giving her chosen knight a sailcloth and a prophecy about the return of the Isle of the Goddess to the surface, but it isn't clear whether that's time travel or just foresight.
      There are also elements of a split:
      • When Link plants the life tree seed in the past, the life tree is growing in the present, even though it wasn't there before.
      • Demise is killed in both the present and the past.
      I think the simplest explanation is that there is a loop, following Hylia's original plan. That loop involves Zelda going back in time to strengthen the seal, and Impa going forward in time and then back again to help Link and Zelda in both periods. But, unlike the case with the Song of Storms, the loop isn't perfect. The important events happen each time, but little events go differently. Eventually, the changes add up. The second-to-last change is Link planting the tree of life at the Sealed Temple, which evidently didn't happen in the previous iteration of the loop. The last change is Ghirahim taking Zelda back to revive Demise, which ultimately leads to a radically different timeline in which Demise was defeated in the past instead of the present. That's the timeline that Link, Zelda, and Groose end up in, and the end of the loop.

      That's how I see it.
      Goddess of the Sands

      Map of Thyphlo Ruins

      Forest Architects

      If you have Amiibo Tap: Nintendo's Greatest Bits on Wii U, you can reset which games your amiibo unlock by deleting the game and then redownloading it.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Evran_Speer ().

    • There is no plot hole in regards to Demise. He was not killed in the past, just sealed away. Over time, his strength faded, which is why he returned to the Imprisoned state.
      At some point, though, Impa seems to have resealed him outside. Perhaps he came close to breaking free, prompting her to act - or maybe he actually DID break free, using up so much of his strength that he was left in a weak enough state for Impa to handle.
    • Kasuto wrote:

      There is no plot hole in regards to Demise. He was not killed in the past, just sealed away. Over time, his strength faded, which is why he returned to the Imprisoned state.
      At some point, though, Impa seems to have resealed him outside. Perhaps he came close to breaking free, prompting her to act - or maybe he actually DID break free, using up so much of his strength that he was left in a weak enough state for Impa to handle.
      Demise was killed in the past. We participated in that event. Demise was killed and his remains were sealed inside the Master Sword. Not in the ground where Hylia originally sealed him.

      The way the game's time travel mechanic works, is that everything done from Link and Zelda's POV is what's changing history. Everyone around them is changing with them. The curve ball is Ghirahim. His actions weren't factored into Hylia's plan. First when he escapes his prison with Demise (in the ground). Second when he creates a tornado to bring Zelda to the surface. Third when he attacks Zelda and Impa at the Lanaryu ToT. And finally when he kidnaps Zelda and uses the time gate to revive Demise in the past.

      That last act is what monkey wrenches the time travel aspect of the game. Everything prior to that was a semi-perfect causality loop. Semi-perfect, because we also had to change history to help the Thunder Dragon with the fruit.
    • AllStarNemesis wrote:


      Demise was killed in the past. We participated in that event. Demise was killed and his remains were sealed inside the Master Sword. Not in the ground where Hylia originally sealed him.

      Killed, defeated... Whatever you want to call it, he is not truly gone. His remains are decaying within the Master Sword and Impa watches over the blade because - and I quote - “His spirit must not reawaken”.
      Clearly, there is a danger that he will reawaken and clearly, he does. When that happens, Impa reseals him outside.
    • Kasuto wrote:

      AllStarNemesis wrote:

      Demise was killed in the past. We participated in that event. Demise was killed and his remains were sealed inside the Master Sword. Not in the ground where Hylia originally sealed him.
      Killed, defeated... Whatever you want to call it, he is not truly gone. His remains are decaying within the Master Sword and Impa watches over the blade because - and I quote - “His spirit must not reawaken”.Clearly, there is a danger that he will reawaken and clearly, he does. When that happens, Impa reseals him outside.
      Objection: speculation.

      How would Impa reseal Demise outside? Before all that, how would the remains of Demise escape the Master Sword? Only way to escape the MS would be for Demise to shatter the blade from within. None of these things happened.

      Like I said, Ghirahim traveling to the past was the curveball in SS's loop. Hylia's plan was for the TF to be used in the present (her future) to beat Demise. Not several days after he had been sealed in the past.