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    Wind Waker's ending is dumb and so are the king and Tetra.
    • Yeah, I think this might be my last post in this thread, haha. I think Setras is right about nothing new coming up and we've gone the rounds a few times. And I'm tired of making these long-ass posts.

      Cornelius

      @Cornelius Fudge Look, I'm sorry, but the idea that the Triforce is incapable of killing Ganondorf has no legs to stand on. It just doesn't. You make a few good connections, but ignore gigantic, massive, right-in-your-face information to make it work.

      Cornelius Fudge wrote:

      When you view it in relation to Ocarina of Time, it makes sense. The Pearl of the Gods parallel the Spiritual Stones used to open the door of time in OOT. This is explicitly shown when the pearl of the gods which are directly related to the Three Goddesses do in fact open up the Tower of the Gods which acts as the gateway towards the Master Sword as the Temple of Time did in OOT. The Temple of Time which holds the key to the Sacred Realm was clearly the Goddess' work which means the Tower of the Gods refer to the Three Golden Goddesses.

      The Three Golden Goddesses were also the ones tasked with protecting the Sacred Realm and the Triforce by default (up until Hylia's introduction), so it does in fact make sense why it refers to the Goddesses. After all, why would they let any other God protect the Master Sword when they're the most suitable for the job to begin with?
      Okay, lot of stuff to parse through here.

      First off, I'm not seeing the Goddess Pearls as direct analogues to the spiritual stones. The Spiritual Stones are not really affiliated with the Goddesses besides shared colors and elemental affiliation. It's not a stretch to think that maybe they were intended to represent a Goddess each, but explicitly they represent the people you get them from. See how the Goddess Pearls have the marks of the Goddess on them:

      zeldauniverse.net/forums/Attac…c0c5cf02066a777f5ea172add

      And then note that the Spiritual Stones do not have the marks of the Goddess on them:

      zeldauniverse.net/forums/Attac…c0c5cf02066a777f5ea172add

      The Zora Sapphire does bear a very striking similarity Nayru's Mark, but neither the Kokiri's Emerald nor the Goron Ruby have anything in common with their supposed respective Goddesses. I'm not as sure about the Kokiri symbol, but both the Zora Sapphire and the Goron Ruby are shaped in a symbol that has continued to represent those tribes to this day in Zelda games. While again, it's a cool connection that there is probably one for each Goddess, OoT doesn't tell you that. It tells you that each race was entrusted with a key to the Sacred Realm, and that the stones represent their people.

      Secondly, you are, once again, placing undue importance on the Master Sword. Neither the Tower of the Gods nor the Temple of Time was acting as a gateway specifically to the Master Sword. The Tower of the Gods was a gateway to Old Hyrule, where the Master Sword happened to be, and the Temple of Time was a gateway to the Sacred Realm, which the Master Sword was the final key to. So you trying to draw a parallel to the functions of the Tower of the Gods and the Temple of Time in that respect doesn't work.

      Thirdly, it is not at all clear that the Temple of Time is the work of the Golden Trio. Not even sure where you're getting that. Do you mean you think they literally built it? Because we know they didn't. It was built by the sages to protect the Sacred Realm after all the wars and fighting over the Triforce.

      Fourthly, the three Golden Goddesses were not "tasked" with protecting the Sacred Realm. They created it, dumped the Triforce there, and skipped town. You are thinking of Hylia, who was tasked by the Goddesses with protecting the Triforce. From Zelda Wiki: "The Triforce, also known as the Ultimate Power, is a sacred golden relic left behind by the Golden Goddesses, Din, Nayru, and Farore, once they finished creating the realm, which came to be known as Hyrule. The Goddess Hylia was tasked with the protection of this world and the Triforce. After Hylia ceases to exist as a goddess, the Triforce is protected by the Royal Family of Hyrule, the sages and the Sheikah."

      Fifthly, the Golden Goddesses have little to nothing to do with the Master Sword. It was forged by Hylia and Link well after their time. The only connection they have to it is that the Master Sword was tempered in the Sacred Flames they left behind. Why are they most suited to protect the Master Sword? It's not their creation - they don't even actively protect the thing they did create (the Triforce) - it's not tied in any way to the Triforce, it's job is to seal darkness.

      Cornelius Fudge wrote:

      Then what other gods would be worshiped other than the ones who blessed them with the gift of life and a world to live in? Remember, the history of Hyrule and the creation of the Triforce is coveted by many which was left behind by the Three Goddesses and that legend had been passed on to many generations evident in OOT. People throughout history fought for this treasure. Because of the Triforce's legacy and prestige, it makes perfect sense that the Three Goddesses would be worshiped and even moreso that they would pray for them to put an end to Ganondorf's reign given that they can make any wish come true.


      So really? What other god would people believe in that has the power to stop Ganondorf? Do tell, I'm waiting.
      You're waiting for me to name a god that is worshiped besides the Three, are you? It's really, really hard to take you seriously at this point, dude. Are you seriously asking me what other god could possibly be worshipped by the Hylians? As in the people of Hylia? You're wondering who Zelda, the reincarnated mortal form of Hylia worships? You're curious about who Link, who wields the sword crafted by Hylia and literally prays at statues of Hylia to gain power, worships? You're not sure who the five races, united by Hylia, who watched Hylia defeat and seal away Demise, worship? You're asking who the Kingdom of Hyrule, where "Hylia-rules", where the symbol of Hylia is emblazoned on just about everything, where they named a damn lake after Hylia, worships?

      I dunno, actually. Probably Tingle, I guess.

      spoilers
      I was actually telling a joke with the Tingle thing. It's Hylia. The answer is Hylia.


      I'd like you to find me one solid, explicit example of anybody in any of the games worshiping the Golden Goddesses directly. Not saying there aren't any - I'm not a super deep Zelda lore dude. But you haven't haven't brought up a single instance to justify what you're saying, and I'm not aware of any time the Golden Trio was actively worshiped. No, people seeking out and fighting over the Triforce does not count. The Triforce and the Golden Goddesses are complete, 100% distinct entities. We know for a fact that the Goddesses left the world when they finished creating it. We know for a fact they left other people in charge of it. People seeking the Triforce is not an example of people worshiping the Golden Goddesses. People want it for its power, not because they have deep feelings of reverence towards the Goddesses that all but abandoned the world.

      Cornelius Fudge wrote:

      My issue with this is that it's clearly established that the spirit of the hero is passed down through blood yet no blood can be passed on if the Hero of Time is already dead and yet we do have a chosen hero present that defeats Ganondorf. This already doesn't make sense to begin with. Fact of the matter is, there was a chosen hero present and he did stop Ganon, so there was no need to intervene. This is different from WW where there was no hope that there'd be hero to end Ganondorf's reign because the blood of the hero had left their world permanently and even after the Great Flood, no hero has ever appeared to take on the legacy of the Hero of Time until hundreds/many years have passed.

      Aside from that, you discredited yourself the moment you acknowledged that the Three Goddesses were directly involved when the Sacred Realm was in jeopardy during the Interloper War. Is this no different than sealing Ganondorf's power because the Triforce was in jeopardy because of his lust for its power?
      No, there wasn't a hero who defeated Ganon, because the Hero of Time died. I don't think you understood what I was saying. I'm not talking about the events of ALttP, I'm talking about the backstory of ALttP. You don't seem to be very familiar with the game. In the backstory to WW, there was no chosen hero when Ganon came back so the gods intervened, right? In the backstory to ALttP, there was no chosen hero (because he died) so Ganon got the Triforce and started rampaging. It took an entire war, lots of people died, they sealed him away, etc., but the gods never intervened. That's my point of bringing it up. You said the gods were forced to intervene because there had never been a moment where there just was no hero to fight the evil. I'm saying that's not true. ALttP's backstory is the same situation as WW's backstory. So clearly "the gods" weren't forced to do anything.

      We don't know who or what flooded Hyrule or why they did that versus something else. There was no "spirit of the hero" or hero's bloodline or whatever you want to call it in either the DT or the AT. No hero stepped up in the backstory to ALttP, so they fought a costly, brutal war and barely managed to seal him away. No hero stepped up in the backstory to WW, so they people apparently prayed to somebody, and that somebody flooded Hyrule. In both cases, a new hero stepped up later and proved himself worthy to fight the evil. There's no explicit reason given to believe that it was definitely the Golden Goddesses who flooded Hyrule. Could it have been? Yes. But if it was, there's still no reason whatsoever to believe they flooded Hyrule because it was the best they could do, rather than they simply chose to because they don't like to intervene.

      Honestly not sure what you're saying with that last bit. I don't know in what way I supposedly discredited myself. All along I've acknowledged the possibility that the Golden Goddesses intervene from time to time. I've also made it clear that A. I don't consider it as likely as some other candidates, and B. the Goddesses intervening in specific ways is not proof that they couldn't do something else. Flooding Hyrule does not mean they are powerless to do something else.

      Cornelius Fudge wrote:

      Because it's really that simple. You're denying that the Three Goddesses were directly involved in the Great Flood because if they were, your entire argument would fall apart. Because of that, it is important to clarify why "the gods" refer to the Three Golden Goddesses directly and I have effectively done so in my rebuttal.

      1. I never flat-out denied that Golden Goddesses could have flooded Hyrule. Citation:

      GregariousTree wrote:

      As I said before. The Golden Goddesses have never, as far as I recall, directly intervened in any conflict in Hyrulean history. Maybe the interloper war? I can't remember. But rarely if ever do they intervene. Hylia is the goddess actually worshipped and who actually appears to act on behalf of her people. There are multiple other gods referenced throughout the game. WW does not ever specify that the Golden Goddesses flooded Hyrule the first time, and I honestly think it unlikely to be them, unless the Triforce was used then too, in which case we'd need to know the specifics of the wish. "The gods" does not automatically equal "the Golden Goddesses." That's just speculation.
      Note the uncertainty of my language. My use of words like "rarely" and "I think it unlikely" means I am acknowledging the possibility that it was in fact them.

      2. My entire argument would not fall apart if the Golden Goddesses did flood Hyrule. I have said this before and given my reasons for it. Citation:

      GregariousTree wrote:

      The Goddesses have agency and seem not to be super into meddling into the affairs of mortals. I think it's equally plausible that they simply want the mortals to work things out for themselves, rather than they are literally incapable of destroying Ganondorf.
      Note here that I give an alternative to the idea that they flooded Hyrule because it's literally all they could do. The alternative I have given is not just equally supported by the evidence you have given, it's more supported by it because it also fits with all the evidence that you are still ignoring.

      3. You have not been effective in your rebuttal. At best, you made some interesting but inconclusive connections between WW and OoT. At worst, you were factually wrong about various details, again, and ignored evidence given in prior posts, again.


      Cornelius Fudge wrote:

      1. What're you talking about? It's explicitly stated that the Three Goddesses responded to the pleas of many which requested them to stop Ganondorf and the only thing they can do was to seal Ganondorf. I hope you're not suggesting that "the gods" are retarded for taking people to the mountaintops and ultimately destroying their way of life when they could've just ended Ganondorf's life in a blink of an eye.
      No. It isn't. I asked you before to cite where WW explicitly mentions the Three Goddesses. You failed to provide that citation because it doesn't exist. The best you came up with is a mention of the Three Goddess Pearls and an attempted tie-in to OoT that contained more than one factual error. That is an (unconvincing) implication; that is not what explicit means. The Golden Goddesses are never, ever directly identified as the gods who flooded Hyrule.

      Yeah, maybe the Goddesses were stupid for flooding instead of smiting. Or maybe it was something else? You have set up a false equivalency - either the Goddesses couldn't smite Ganondorf, or they were being idiots. Those aren't the only options, especially given how very little we actually know about the circumstances of the flooding. Here's a plausible alternative: it wasn't them who flooded Hyrule. Here's another one: They flooded Hyrule because they want mortals to take care of their own problems. Maybe they're cruel or aloof, not stupid. Here's another one: It was flooded with a wish from the Triforce. Whoever made the wish for some reason decided that was the best thing to do.

      Cornelius Fudge wrote:

      2. Because it is literally their power. It isn't a creation of the Divine Beasts or the Goddess Sword left by Hylia, it is infact their power and each fragment embodies each of the Goddess' characteristics.
      It is a part of their power. The Triforce and the Goddesses are not fungible. Here's one example of the difference between the two: The Goddesses can act on their own. They have agency. The Triforce cannot. It only does what it's wielder desires.

      Imagine for a moment that you are right (I am not saying you are, this is a hypothetical): The Goddesses are not capable of destroying Ganondorf. If that is the only fact we knew, we could not logically assume that the Triforce is also incapable of destroying him. Why? Because what if the reason the Goddesses were unable to destroy him is because a god cannot choose to kill a mortal, not because they lacked the actual power to? The Triforce can't "choose" anything - it is subject to mortal will. If that were the case, then the Triforce could do something the Goddesses couldn't, even though its power comes from them.

      I am not theorizing the above hypothetical is true - it's just one example of why we can't assume that the Goddesses and the Triforce operate in the same way.

      Cornelius Fudge wrote:

      3. The only mistake I made was misconstruing OOT Zelda's plans and that was my fault. It's been awhile since I played the game.
      Well, you've actually made quite a few factual errors. Like saying that the Golden Goddesses were the ones tasked with protecting the Sacred Realm.

      But this isn't even addressing my point. To believe your theory, we have to ignore all the times when various sources told us the Triforce is capable of granting any wish your heart desires. For example: " "Upon leaving the world, the goddesses left behind the Triforce: three golden triangles. It is said that any wish the possessor of the Triforce desires will come true..." -Hyrule Historia

      Even the quote from Daphnes in the OP of this thread reiterates the idea. To believe your claim, which is not supported by any explicit evidence, we have to ignore multiple explicit statements. To believe that the Triforce cannot kill Ganondorf, we have to believe that we've been lied to over and over again by this series.

      Cornelius Fudge wrote:

      4. You mean in a game that succeeds Wind Waker by many years. There is no proof that this is what the writer's had intended the Triforce to do at that point. All that's stated is that it can lead the land into prosperity depending on the person's heart. Fortunately, given that the Hero of Time's legacy is very much respected, Daphnes spoke from his heart and had complete faith in WW Link after Link lives up to the Hero of Time's legacy. Doesn't get any simpler than that.
      What you are arguing here is mind-boggling. You are saying that because SS came after WW, what happened there doesn't matter for the purposes of WW's story. You are acknowledging there is a contradiction if we go by your theory, but that all we have to do is discount SS and it's fine.

      You can't do that. Unless we say SS is not canon, then either the events of WW have been retconned and are now not canon, OR your theory is incorrect.

      Cornelius Fudge wrote:

      5. Didn't state that he was, only that he was portrayed as such.
      No, you definitely implied that he was a god on the level of the Goddesses when you said it wouldn't make sense for a god to be toppled by another god. Citation:

      Cornelius Fudge wrote:

      A god toppling another god with a mere wish is highly debatable.
      And finally...

      Cornelius Fudge wrote:

      6. Difficult to say since Ganondorf is capable of his own dark magic given that he was raised by Twinrova, but I will agree that it is arguable and is an oversight of mine.
      It is not arguable. It's directly stated in TP. Citation:

      GregariousTree wrote:

      TP states in the scene with the sages that it's because of the Triforce of Power that's so magically buff. They explicitly state, "By some divine prank, he too had been blessed with the chosen power of the gods."


      This discussion is going nowhere, and is tangential to the thread anyway. As long as you continue to flat-out ignore not only what I say, but what the games say, it is pointless to have this kind of a debate.
      A dark chase requires a silent hound, and deep roots are not reached by the frost.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by GregariousTree ().

    • The Triforce can defeat Ganondorf. I just don't think the people realize that Ganon is a curse, not just a powerful demon.

      If they wish the curse away, it would end. Just like that.

      I mean, Demise and Ganondorf both wanted the Triforce. Why? Because it's stronger than they are, and they wanted its power.

      I'ma just drop the mic now and leave with Gregarious Tree. *drops mic*
    • Gonna admit though, I love WW but I always thought the King was being something of a selfish jerk. No no, why would you bother to ask the Hero and your descendant if they wanted to return Hyrule to its former state or let it be drowned? I’ll bet you anything they actually wanted to save it.

      In fact, New Hyrule makes sense, because it’s proof they did want it.

      Stupid king. *grumbles*

      Celebrating 3 whole years of ZU membership -- 8/22/2015 - 8/22/2018
    • I don't even think he was that selfish. He fought for Hyrule and instead of fervently clinging onto something that seemingly had no hope, he decides to trust the fate of the world to a new chosen hero, a hero in which he and his people believed in
      That doesn't sound selfish to me, rather that it was his dying wish that a new hero would lead his people to prosperity instead of himself.
    • Cornelius Fudge wrote:

      I don't even think he was that selfish. He fought for Hyrule and instead of fervently clinging onto something that seemingly had no hope, he decides to trust the fate of the world to a new chosen hero, a hero in which he and his people believed in
      That doesn't sound selfish to me, rather that it was his dying wish that a new hero would lead his people to prosperity instead of himself.
      Yeahhhh, and not wish for the Demon King/Evil never to revive again...which...you could have just done. Instead New Hyrule came to pass and Demise’s hatred just reincarnated into Malladus again. Good job. Lol

      Celebrating 3 whole years of ZU membership -- 8/22/2015 - 8/22/2018
    • Linkle wrote:

      Cornelius Fudge wrote:

      I don't even think he was that selfish. He fought for Hyrule and instead of fervently clinging onto something that seemingly had no hope, he decides to trust the fate of the world to a new chosen hero, a hero in which he and his people believed in
      That doesn't sound selfish to me, rather that it was his dying wish that a new hero would lead his people to prosperity instead of himself.
      Yeahhhh, and not wish for the Demon King/Evil never to revive again...which...you could have just done. Instead New Hyrule came to pass and Demise’s hatred just reincarnated into Malladus again. Good job. Lol
      You're questioning the validity in Daphnes's decision when the argument at hand is whether or not his actions were selfish. The reason why they're selfless is explicitly illustrated in his own assertion of what he desires:

      "He who touches it will have whatever he desires granted... That is what you said, is it not, Ganondorf? Gods of the Triforce! Hear that which I desire! Hope! I desire hope for these children! Give them a future! Wash away this ancient land of Hyrule! Let a ray of hope shine on the future of the world!!!"


      Honestly, what part of this sounds selfish? He literally risked his life to seal away Hyrule, be rid of the wretched past that has plagued them for so long, so that the hero and his daughter could have a bright future where they can instill hope in a world that had no longer had any hope at all. He ensured they would have a great future in the end and left the world in the hands of a hero which people can trust, that they can believe in just like they had once done with the Hero of Time. Instead of letting himself lead his people, he thought it was best to help Link in his journey and lead his people towards prosperity.

      Honestly, this isn't really as ridiculous as you make it seem. The gods that people worshiped literally sealed away Hyrule to rid of Ganon's influence on the world and Daphnes literally did the same thing. I'm baffled why people accept this fact yet condemn Daphnes for doing what the gods have done except this time, ensure that the New Hyrule will be protected by a true leader.

      As for your argument, this wouldn't matter. Whether or not Old Hyrule would be left intact, Demise's hatred still would've been reincarnated as wishing away Ganondorf has no relation to ending Demise's eternal curse.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Cornelius Fudge ().

    • Cornelius Fudge wrote:

      Linkle wrote:

      Cornelius Fudge wrote:

      I don't even think he was that selfish. He fought for Hyrule and instead of fervently clinging onto something that seemingly had no hope, he decides to trust the fate of the world to a new chosen hero, a hero in which he and his people believed in
      That doesn't sound selfish to me, rather that it was his dying wish that a new hero would lead his people to prosperity instead of himself.
      Yeahhhh, and not wish for the Demon King/Evil never to revive again...which...you could have just done. Instead New Hyrule came to pass and Demise’s hatred just reincarnated into Malladus again. Good job. Lol
      You're questioning the validity in Daphnes's decision when the argument at hand is whether or not his actions were selfish. The reason why they're selfless is explicitly illustrated in his own assertion of what he desires:
      "He who touches it will have whatever he desires granted... That is what you said, is it not, Ganondorf? Gods of the Triforce! Hear that which I desire! Hope! I desire hope for these children! Give them a future! Wash away this ancient land of Hyrule! Let a ray of hope shine on the future of the world!!!"


      Honestly, what part of this sounds selfish? He literally risked his life to seal away Hyrule, be rid of the wretched past that has plagued them for so long, so that the hero and his daughter could have a bright future where they can instill hope in a world that had no longer had any hope at all. He ensured they would have a great future in the end and left the world in the hands of a hero which people can trust, that they can believe in just like they had once done with the Hero of Time. Instead of letting himself lead his people, he thought it was best to help Link in his journey and lead his people towards prosperity.

      Honestly, this isn't really as ridiculous as you make it seem. The gods that people worshiped literally sealed away Hyrule to rid of Ganon's influence on the world and Daphnes literally did the same thing. I'm baffled why people accept this fact yet condemn Daphnes for doing what the gods have done except this time, ensure that the New Hyrule will be protected by a true leader.

      As for your argument, this wouldn't matter. Whether or not Old Hyrule would be left intact, Demise's hatred still would've been reincarnated as wishing away Ganondorf has no relation to ending Demise's eternal curse.
      I’m not saying I hate Daphnes, because I don’t. I think it’s selfish because he didn’t bother to ask them how they felt about Hyrule being washed away. If he truly wanted the best for these children, you would think he would consider their feelings. I never said “wish away Ganondorf” I said “Demon King/Evil” — the former of which would cover Demise, Ganon, Malladus, and every other major being save for Vaati and Bellum, and the latter of which would cover everything. Even he admits he is selfish in the game, saying he had the same issue as Ganondorf and would choose to drown and die rather than to be saved along with them. He destroyed Hyrule along with himself because he wanted to be the person to save those children; now whether that was out of selflessness or selfishness because he only wanted to play hero is something that can be debated until the end of time because we really can’t get inside his head, but the act itself — choosing to destroy an entire kingdom along with Ganondorf (which didn’t even solve the problem in the slightest) without even asking the Hero and the rightful living heir to the kingdom what they wanted for the land that was their birthright — is, in my eyes, a selfish move to make.

      It wasn’t his call. It shouldn’t have been.

      Celebrating 3 whole years of ZU membership -- 8/22/2015 - 8/22/2018

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Linkle ().

    • @Linkle I ought to reiterate nobody knows about the whole curse of reborn hatred, so to expect Daphnes to wish an to end something everyone is oblivious to is unfair.

      Edit: even the act of just asking Link and Zelda what they want would be irresponsible. Who are two kids to decide what’s right for everyone? That’s what started the mess in the first place!

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Fal Cie ().

    • Fal Cie wrote:

      @Linkle I ought to reiterate nobody knows about the whole curse of reborn hatred, so to expect Daphnes to wish an to end something everyone is oblivious to is unfair.
      I’m not 100% sure of that. By BotW in whatever timeline you want to consider it in, they definitely did know, at the very least, that Ganon reincarnated time and time again.

      Even so, to choose to kill a kingdom when you could simply say “Let Ganondorf be gone and never appear again” or better yet swap “Ganondorf” for the term “Demon King” or “evil” and have the land live and thrive again is absurdity of the highest level.

      Celebrating 3 whole years of ZU membership -- 8/22/2015 - 8/22/2018
    • Fal Cie wrote:

      By the time of WW Ganon hasn’t even been killed once, equating it to the lore of BotW is a terrible comparison.
      Even in BotW they don’t know that Ganon returning is the result of a persistent curse.
      We don’t really know what they know in BotW, to be perfectly honest. We can’t assert anything just from what they’ve said. And, no, it isn’t a terrible comparison. We literally do not know whether or not by this time they expected reincarnation of anyone; if what Ganon truly said in the end of the Wind Waker (the true translation, not the NoA translation), at the very least Ganon fully expected Link’s reincarnation.

      We can’t assert anything about their knowledge, and at the very least, all you’re doing is making my argument that he could have easily chosen to wish for Ganondorf’s destruction more logical in his eyes, in the event he WASN’T expecting reincarnation or taking that into account.

      And again Hyrule is unnecessary when nobody is asking for it and a new continent will be made eventually.

      And again, destroying an entire land because of one person is unnecessary and illogical, especially when it is a land he claims to have “loved” and he never gave these children the chance to say whether they wanted it or not.

      Celebrating 3 whole years of ZU membership -- 8/22/2015 - 8/22/2018
    • GregariousTree wrote:

      Yeah, I think this might be my last post in this thread, haha. I think Setras is right about nothing new coming up and we've gone the rounds a few times. And I'm tired of making these long-ass posts.

      Cornelius

      @Cornelius Fudge Look, I'm sorry, but the idea that the Triforce is incapable of killing Ganondorf has no legs to stand on. It just doesn't. You make a few good connections, but ignore gigantic, massive, right-in-your-face information to make it work.

      Cornelius Fudge wrote:

      When you view it in relation to Ocarina of Time, it makes sense. The Pearl of the Gods parallel the Spiritual Stones used to open the door of time in OOT. This is explicitly shown when the pearl of the gods which are directly related to the Three Goddesses do in fact open up the Tower of the Gods which acts as the gateway towards the Master Sword as the Temple of Time did in OOT. The Temple of Time which holds the key to the Sacred Realm was clearly the Goddess' work which means the Tower of the Gods refer to the Three Golden Goddesses.

      The Three Golden Goddesses were also the ones tasked with protecting the Sacred Realm and the Triforce by default (up until Hylia's introduction), so it does in fact make sense why it refers to the Goddesses. After all, why would they let any other God protect the Master Sword when they're the most suitable for the job to begin with?
      Okay, lot of stuff to parse through here.
      First off, I'm not seeing the Goddess Pearls as direct analogues to the spiritual stones. The Spiritual Stones are not really affiliated with the Goddesses besides shared colors and elemental affiliation. It's not a stretch to think that maybe they were intended to represent a Goddess each, but explicitly they represent the people you get them from. See how the Goddess Pearls have the marks of the Goddess on them:

      zeldauniverse.net/forums/Attac…c0c5cf02066a777f5ea172add

      And then note that the Spiritual Stones do not have the marks of the Goddess on them:

      zeldauniverse.net/forums/Attac…c0c5cf02066a777f5ea172add

      The Zora Sapphire does bear a very striking similarity Nayru's Mark, but neither the Kokiri's Emerald nor the Goron Ruby have anything in common with their supposed respective Goddesses. I'm not as sure about the Kokiri symbol, but both the Zora Sapphire and the Goron Ruby are shaped in a symbol that has continued to represent those tribes to this day in Zelda games. While again, it's a cool connection that there is probably one for each Goddess, OoT doesn't tell you that. It tells you that each race was entrusted with a key to the Sacred Realm, and that the stones represent their people.

      Secondly, you are, once again, placing undue importance on the Master Sword. Neither the Tower of the Gods nor the Temple of Time was acting as a gateway specifically to the Master Sword. The Tower of the Gods was a gateway to Old Hyrule, where the Master Sword happened to be, and the Temple of Time was a gateway to the Sacred Realm, which the Master Sword was the final key to. So you trying to draw a parallel to the functions of the Tower of the Gods and the Temple of Time in that respect doesn't work.

      Thirdly, it is not at all clear that the Temple of Time is the work of the Golden Trio. Not even sure where you're getting that. Do you mean you think they literally built it? Because we know they didn't. It was built by the sages to protect the Sacred Realm after all the wars and fighting over the Triforce.

      Fourthly, the three Golden Goddesses were not "tasked" with protecting the Sacred Realm. They created it, dumped the Triforce there, and skipped town. You are thinking of Hylia, who was tasked by the Goddesses with protecting the Triforce. From Zelda Wiki: "The Triforce, also known as the Ultimate Power, is a sacred golden relic left behind by the Golden Goddesses, Din, Nayru, and Farore, once they finished creating the realm, which came to be known as Hyrule. The Goddess Hylia was tasked with the protection of this world and the Triforce. After Hylia ceases to exist as a goddess, the Triforce is protected by the Royal Family of Hyrule, the sages and the Sheikah."

      Fifthly, the Golden Goddesses have little to nothing to do with the Master Sword. It was forged by Hylia and Link well after their time. The only connection they have to it is that the Master Sword was tempered in the Sacred Flames they left behind. Why are they most suited to protect the Master Sword? It's not their creation - they don't even actively protect the thing they did create (the Triforce) - it's not tied in any way to the Triforce, it's job is to seal darkness.

      Cornelius Fudge wrote:

      Then what other gods would be worshiped other than the ones who blessed them with the gift of life and a world to live in? Remember, the history of Hyrule and the creation of the Triforce is coveted by many which was left behind by the Three Goddesses and that legend had been passed on to many generations evident in OOT. People throughout history fought for this treasure. Because of the Triforce's legacy and prestige, it makes perfect sense that the Three Goddesses would be worshiped and even moreso that they would pray for them to put an end to Ganondorf's reign given that they can make any wish come true.


      So really? What other god would people believe in that has the power to stop Ganondorf? Do tell, I'm waiting.
      You're waiting for me to name a god that is worshiped besides the Three, are you? It's really, really hard to take you seriously at this point, dude. Are you seriously asking me what other god could possibly be worshipped by the Hylians? As in the people of Hylia? You're wondering who Zelda, the reincarnated mortal form of Hylia worships? You're curious about who Link, who wields the sword crafted by Hylia and literally prays at statues of Hylia to gain power, worships? You're not sure who the five races, united by Hylia, who watched Hylia defeat and seal away Demise, worship? You're asking who the Kingdom of Hyrule, where "Hylia-rules", where the symbol of Hylia is emblazoned on just about everything, where they named a damn lake after Hylia, worships?
      I dunno, actually. Probably Tingle, I guess.

      spoilers
      I was actually telling a joke with the Tingle thing. It's Hylia. The answer is Hylia.


      I'd like you to find me one solid, explicit example of anybody in any of the games worshiping the Golden Goddesses directly. Not saying there aren't any - I'm not a super deep Zelda lore dude. But you haven't haven't brought up a single instance to justify what you're saying, and I'm not aware of any time the Golden Trio was actively worshiped. No, people seeking out and fighting over the Triforce does not count. The Triforce and the Golden Goddesses are complete, 100% distinct entities. We know for a fact that the Goddesses left the world when they finished creating it. We know for a fact they left other people in charge of it. People seeking the Triforce is not an example of people worshiping the Golden Goddesses. People want it for its power, not because they have deep feelings of reverence towards the Goddesses that all but abandoned the world.

      Cornelius Fudge wrote:

      My issue with this is that it's clearly established that the spirit of the hero is passed down through blood yet no blood can be passed on if the Hero of Time is already dead and yet we do have a chosen hero present that defeats Ganondorf. This already doesn't make sense to begin with. Fact of the matter is, there was a chosen hero present and he did stop Ganon, so there was no need to intervene. This is different from WW where there was no hope that there'd be hero to end Ganondorf's reign because the blood of the hero had left their world permanently and even after the Great Flood, no hero has ever appeared to take on the legacy of the Hero of Time until hundreds/many years have passed.

      Aside from that, you discredited yourself the moment you acknowledged that the Three Goddesses were directly involved when the Sacred Realm was in jeopardy during the Interloper War. Is this no different than sealing Ganondorf's power because the Triforce was in jeopardy because of his lust for its power?
      No, there wasn't a hero who defeated Ganon, because the Hero of Time died. I don't think you understood what I was saying. I'm not talking about the events of ALttP, I'm talking about the backstory of ALttP. You don't seem to be very familiar with the game. In the backstory to WW, there was no chosen hero when Ganon came back so the gods intervened, right? In the backstory to ALttP, there was no chosen hero (because he died) so Ganon got the Triforce and started rampaging. It took an entire war, lots of people died, they sealed him away, etc., but the gods never intervened. That's my point of bringing it up. You said the gods were forced to intervene because there had never been a moment where there just was no hero to fight the evil. I'm saying that's not true. ALttP's backstory is the same situation as WW's backstory. So clearly "the gods" weren't forced to do anything.
      We don't know who or what flooded Hyrule or why they did that versus something else. There was no "spirit of the hero" or hero's bloodline or whatever you want to call it in either the DT or the AT. No hero stepped up in the backstory to ALttP, so they fought a costly, brutal war and barely managed to seal him away. No hero stepped up in the backstory to WW, so they people apparently prayed to somebody, and that somebody flooded Hyrule. In both cases, a new hero stepped up later and proved himself worthy to fight the evil. There's no explicit reason given to believe that it was definitely the Golden Goddesses who flooded Hyrule. Could it have been? Yes. But if it was, there's still no reason whatsoever to believe they flooded Hyrule because it was the best they could do, rather than they simply chose to because they don't like to intervene.

      Honestly not sure what you're saying with that last bit. I don't know in what way I supposedly discredited myself. All along I've acknowledged the possibility that the Golden Goddesses intervene from time to time. I've also made it clear that A. I don't consider it as likely as some other candidates, and B. the Goddesses intervening in specific ways is not proof that they couldn't do something else. Flooding Hyrule does not mean they are powerless to do something else.

      Cornelius Fudge wrote:

      Because it's really that simple. You're denying that the Three Goddesses were directly involved in the Great Flood because if they were, your entire argument would fall apart. Because of that, it is important to clarify why "the gods" refer to the Three Golden Goddesses directly and I have effectively done so in my rebuttal.
      1. I never flat-out denied that Golden Goddesses could have flooded Hyrule. Citation:

      GregariousTree wrote:

      As I said before. The Golden Goddesses have never, as far as I recall, directly intervened in any conflict in Hyrulean history. Maybe the interloper war? I can't remember. But rarely if ever do they intervene. Hylia is the goddess actually worshipped and who actually appears to act on behalf of her people. There are multiple other gods referenced throughout the game. WW does not ever specify that the Golden Goddesses flooded Hyrule the first time, and I honestly think it unlikely to be them, unless the Triforce was used then too, in which case we'd need to know the specifics of the wish. "The gods" does not automatically equal "the Golden Goddesses." That's just speculation.
      Note the uncertainty of my language. My use of words like "rarely" and "I think it unlikely" means I am acknowledging the possibility that it was in fact them.
      2. My entire argument would not fall apart if the Golden Goddesses did flood Hyrule. I have said this before and given my reasons for it. Citation:

      GregariousTree wrote:

      The Goddesses have agency and seem not to be super into meddling into the affairs of mortals. I think it's equally plausible that they simply want the mortals to work things out for themselves, rather than they are literally incapable of destroying Ganondorf.
      Note here that I give an alternative to the idea that they flooded Hyrule because it's literally all they could do. The alternative I have given is not just equally supported by the evidence you have given, it's more supported by it because it also fits with all the evidence that you are still ignoring.
      3. You have not been effective in your rebuttal. At best, you made some interesting but inconclusive connections between WW and OoT. At worst, you were factually wrong about various details, again, and ignored evidence given in prior posts, again.


      Cornelius Fudge wrote:

      1. What're you talking about? It's explicitly stated that the Three Goddesses responded to the pleas of many which requested them to stop Ganondorf and the only thing they can do was to seal Ganondorf. I hope you're not suggesting that "the gods" are retarded for taking people to the mountaintops and ultimately destroying their way of life when they could've just ended Ganondorf's life in a blink of an eye.
      No. It isn't. I asked you before to cite where WW explicitly mentions the Three Goddesses. You failed to provide that citation because it doesn't exist. The best you came up with is a mention of the Three Goddess Pearls and an attempted tie-in to OoT that contained more than one factual error. That is an (unconvincing) implication; that is not what explicit means. The Golden Goddesses are never, ever directly identified as the gods who flooded Hyrule.
      Yeah, maybe the Goddesses were stupid for flooding instead of smiting. Or maybe it was something else? You have set up a false equivalency - either the Goddesses couldn't smite Ganondorf, or they were being idiots. Those aren't the only options, especially given how very little we actually know about the circumstances of the flooding. Here's a plausible alternative: it wasn't them who flooded Hyrule. Here's another one: They flooded Hyrule because they want mortals to take care of their own problems. Maybe they're cruel or aloof, not stupid. Here's another one: It was flooded with a wish from the Triforce. Whoever made the wish for some reason decided that was the best thing to do.

      Cornelius Fudge wrote:

      2. Because it is literally their power. It isn't a creation of the Divine Beasts or the Goddess Sword left by Hylia, it is infact their power and each fragment embodies each of the Goddess' characteristics.
      It is a part of their power. The Triforce and the Goddesses are not fungible. Here's one example of the difference between the two: The Goddesses can act on their own. They have agency. The Triforce cannot. It only does what it's wielder desires.
      Imagine for a moment that you are right (I am not saying you are, this is a hypothetical): The Goddesses are not capable of destroying Ganondorf. If that is the only fact we knew, we could not logically assume that the Triforce is also incapable of destroying him. Why? Because what if the reason the Goddesses were unable to destroy him is because a god cannot choose to kill a mortal, not because they lacked the actual power to? The Triforce can't "choose" anything - it is subject to mortal will. If that were the case, then the Triforce could do something the Goddesses couldn't, even though its power comes from them.

      I am not theorizing the above hypothetical is true - it's just one example of why we can't assume that the Goddesses and the Triforce operate in the same way.

      Cornelius Fudge wrote:

      3. The only mistake I made was misconstruing OOT Zelda's plans and that was my fault. It's been awhile since I played the game.
      Well, you've actually made quite a few factual errors. Like saying that the Golden Goddesses were the ones tasked with protecting the Sacred Realm.
      But this isn't even addressing my point. To believe your theory, we have to ignore all the times when various sources told us the Triforce is capable of granting any wish your heart desires. For example: " "Upon leaving the world, the goddesses left behind the Triforce: three golden triangles. It is said that any wish the possessor of the Triforce desires will come true..." -Hyrule Historia

      Even the quote from Daphnes in the OP of this thread reiterates the idea. To believe your claim, which is not supported by any explicit evidence, we have to ignore multiple explicit statements. To believe that the Triforce cannot kill Ganondorf, we have to believe that we've been lied to over and over again by this series.

      Cornelius Fudge wrote:

      4. You mean in a game that succeeds Wind Waker by many years. There is no proof that this is what the writer's had intended the Triforce to do at that point. All that's stated is that it can lead the land into prosperity depending on the person's heart. Fortunately, given that the Hero of Time's legacy is very much respected, Daphnes spoke from his heart and had complete faith in WW Link after Link lives up to the Hero of Time's legacy. Doesn't get any simpler than that.
      What you are arguing here is mind-boggling. You are saying that because SS came after WW, what happened there doesn't matter for the purposes of WW's story. You are acknowledging there is a contradiction if we go by your theory, but that all we have to do is discount SS and it's fine.
      You can't do that. Unless we say SS is not canon, then either the events of WW have been retconned and are now not canon, OR your theory is incorrect.

      Cornelius Fudge wrote:

      5. Didn't state that he was, only that he was portrayed as such.
      No, you definitely implied that he was a god on the level of the Goddesses when you said it wouldn't make sense for a god to be toppled by another god. Citation:

      Cornelius Fudge wrote:

      A god toppling another god with a mere wish is highly debatable.
      And finally...

      Cornelius Fudge wrote:

      6. Difficult to say since Ganondorf is capable of his own dark magic given that he was raised by Twinrova, but I will agree that it is arguable and is an oversight of mine.
      It is not arguable. It's directly stated in TP. Citation:

      GregariousTree wrote:

      TP states in the scene with the sages that it's because of the Triforce of Power that's so magically buff. They explicitly state, "By some divine prank, he too had been blessed with the chosen power of the gods."
      This discussion is going nowhere, and is tangential to the thread anyway. As long as you continue to flat-out ignore not only what I say, but what the games say, it is pointless to have this kind of a debate.


      Fair enough, though I do believe it's important for me to get this out before this discussion ends. I've been doing some more research before submitting my last argument.

      It's fine if you don't necessarily believe the Spiritual Stones don't originate from the Three Golden Goddesses, but it's important to consider the fact that after obtaining the Triforce of Courage, Link had to return to the Tower of the Gods where he was selected as the new chosen hero by resonating with the Triforce of Courage. This provides significant evidence in favor of the Tower of the Gods being created by the Goddesses themselves to create trials where they test the person to see if they're worthy of being that hero and their recognition of Link's ability and being worthy of wielding the Triforce of Courage cements this.

      This also contradicts your notion on Hylia. Yes, Hylia was selected as the goddess that is tasked with selecting the chosen hero, but this wasn't established until Skyward Sword where the lore changes significantly. Instead of chosen hero undergoing challenges to garner praise and acknowledgement from the golden goddesses as was the case in OOT and to a lesser extent, TP, we witness Link receiving that recognition from Hylia without undergoing any sort of ordeal. This is illustrated by the piece of evidence I just gave and there are many statements that do support this idea behind the goddesses tasked with selecting the chosen hero rather than Hylia (which is established many years later). This also discredits the notion of there being any other god the Hylians would worship in the first place as Hylia clearly isn't part of the lore at this point in time and it's explicitly stated that they worshiped "the gods", not "the goddess", so there's that going for me as well.

      Faron:

      "It was a sign that the powers of the chosen one rest within you...and that they are awakening. Look at your awakened form... The green tunic that is your garb once belonged to the ancient hero chosen by the gods..."

      When speaking to the Sages at Arbiter Grounds:

      "You who have been sent by the goddesses... You should be able to gather the three pieces..."

      Daphnes:

      "Only one who is able to overcome the trials that await here will be acknowledged by the gods to be a true hero. [...] You must rise above the trial of the gods!"

      The final nail of the coffin is the fact that the Tower of the Gods is literally referred to as a "guidepost of the goddesses":

      "Wandering traveler who seeks the guidepost of the goddesses... Place the pearl you hold here."

      And of course, there are many quotes that refer to the Golden Goddesses as "the gods":

      "After the gods had finished their work, they left the world, but not before creating a symbol of their strength, a golden triangle known as the Triforce. A small but powerful portion of the essence of the gods was held in this mighty artifact, which was to guide the intelligent life on the world of Hyrule." - ALTTP

      "I am one of four light spirits that protect Hyrule at the behest of the gods. I am Ordona."

      It's evident that "the gods" constantly referred to in Wind Waker are the Three Golden Goddesses.

      The post was edited 3 times, last by Cornelius Fudge ().

      Post by GregariousTree ().

      This post was deleted by the author themselves: Said I was done, haha. Not worth the energy. ().
    • Well, I've completely lost interest in that discussion.

      My sticking points are:
      1. it's weird Daphnes didn't clearly wish Ganondorf dead. Even if it somehow wouldn't work, Daphnes had no way of knowing this.
      2. it's weird Daphnes or anyone in that entire scene didn't give the audience any proper reason why Hyrule should be ocean chum. "Peaceful island life would be disrupted"? Not one shred of writing points to this being the reason. It's a good one, but as long as it's not in writing, the whole reason Hyrule drowned is because of nonsensical destiny mumbo jumbo.
      3. it's weird that Daphnes just pops out of nowhere and calls dibs on the Triforce after we get knocked down in two seconds, like what exactly was this entire journey for if nothing we did had any real effect on the ending? How could Ganondorf let this happen after a bagillion years of plotting?
      4. it's weird Tetra calls her new land Hyrule anyways.
      5. it's weird that children with hopeful futures are still abducted into pocket universes and made to kill another demon thing after the credits.

      The post was edited 3 times, last by gamtos ().

    • About your last point, @gamtos...

      Setras wrote:

      and indeed, given that Malladus specifically needed "a vessel with the power of ancient Hyrule" to return, one could argue that this kind of indirectly proves the point that clinging to vestiges of Old Hyrule- not that Zelda really had a choice, but still- just invites strife in the long run
      This makes Spirit Tracks seem really sad. Combined with what you said about Phantom Hourglass, it lends credence to the theory that "give these children a bright future" (or whatever the exact wording was) was just lip service and not an actual wish.

      Is that part of the Demise curse? That good will always have to struggle against evil, regardless of who it is?
      Want to debunk bad non-Zelda theories?

      gamtos wrote:

      The Sheikah are mysterious magic wielders, and this basically makes them a fan-favorite band-aid over any unexplained part of the lore. It's the Zelda equivalent of saying "a wizard did it", but we're always claiming it to be the same wizard.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Nitro Indigo ().

    • @Linkle Fair enough, I am making an assumption based on the lack of mention and I could be assuming wrong. Though in such a case it would be the SS writers making Daphnes a fool by rewriting the lore.
      But this extends to all the kings in the DT who could freely use the Triforce.
      At the time WW came out ( @gamtos this is one of your points too) wishing to erase Ganondorf and end his destiny would be a pretty definite end. To me it seems a clever way of wording it too, because in a universe where the undead are a thing it prevents him from returning as a ghost.

      Again I don’t think it would be wise at all to trust the lifestyle on an ocean to the judgement of two children. Especially as OoT was a deconstruction of the whole kid hero plot, showing how irresponsible it would be for two kids to take a quest without proper guidance.

      Anyway I’ll let this thread lie, but you’ve made me realize something, I’ll take it to a new thread... and the headcanons while I’m at it.