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    Wind Waker's ending is dumb and so are the king and Tetra.
    • Though I gotta say it's kinda hard for Daphnes Squarepants to poll what the Great Sea people wanted while he was stuck in his pineapple.

      What I greatly dislike is how everyone is bringing up possibilities on how Daphnes' wish could potentially make sense, but the devs leave it as some vague "seal the mistakes of the past and turn over a new page" platitudes that equate Ganondorf to Hyrule.

      In turn, it makes saving Hyrule in every other game feel useless because apparently the wisest thing to do is let Ganon wreak havoc until the Gods drown him???
    • Cajbaj wrote:

      Welcome to today's episode of "Nitpicks are more important than themes and if I don't agree with a theme it's bad". I'm your host, Lyle McDouchebag.
      Hey now, I explicitly said the theme was good, but my nitpicks are about the very foundation of the theme.

      Let's say A Link Between Worlds ended with Lorule dead, but the Loruleans live in Hyrule except for Hilda and Ravio who staid behind to keep the portal open, or something like that.

      We'd now be discussing why they couldn't just wish Lorule's Triforce back, and the discussion would be jabbering about how we're overestimating the Triforce's power and how we're undercutting the emotional impact of the game's ending by arguing against it.

      And I would be in limbo because the omnipotent wishing artifact isn't being used properly for the gazillionth time, but gosh people sure love this ending.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by gamtos ().

    • @GregariousTree, first off, keep in mind that once Daphnes makes his wish, the Triforce flies off (seemingly fragmenting again as it goes), which is rather consistent with Great Cataclysm behavior. So your assumption that the Triforce would stay in the picture and Daphnes (or anyone else) could continue to make use of it and patch every hole in the future colonization plans is somewhat faulty.

      Second, the Great Sea has comfortably supported life all across it from the Flood all the way up to the present day, and when we tour the islands, pretty much everybody seems quite content- aside from problems specifically induced by Ganondorf, we don't see much evidence of strife and conflict between any of the people of the various islands. So I don't know where you're getting this notion from that they absolutely need a sprawling country to spread out in and are in want of more resources.

      But regardless, third, Old Hyrule is only accessible from two potential locations- the portal at the Tower of the Gods (which may or may not only stay open in the presence of the ToC) and the ruins of the Foresaken Fortress (which connect to Ganon's Tower, not exactly an ideal entry point). Both points are theoretically accessible and usable, but in practice, few if any are going to be getting in through these and any kind of mass migration would be horribly inefficient. Again, if you want Old Hyrule re-colonized, the Great Sea would only hinder that, if not outright render it impossible. And, as per point 1, there'd only functionally be one shot to try and make it happen.

      Fourth, yes, the people of the continent of New Hyrule were attacked by Malladus- but the Spirits of Good subdued him before Tetra and co. even got there, and generations of relatively technologically-advanced peace ensued, and even after Cole's incursion and Malladus' resurgence, he was eventually taken care of and peace returned, all without needing the Triforce, Master Sword, or anything Old Hyrulean save for Hylia's latent sealing power (and indeed, given that Malladus specifically needed "a vessel with the power of ancient Hyrule" to return, one could argue that this kind of indirectly proves the point that clinging to vestiges of Old Hyrule- not that Zelda really had a choice, but still- just invites strife in the long run). Daphnes never asked for, nor are we certain that he could ask for, eternal peace- he just asked for Link and Tetra to have a future unbound to Old Hyrule and that they always have hope, and this is consistent with what we see later.
      Black Velvet Inferno

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Setras ().

    • Setras, compare the sky from Skyward Sword with the Great Sea.

      One out of every 10 or so islands is inhabited, and the inhabitants don't seem unhappy.

      Resources are somehow no problem, society is doing well for itself, enemy rates are far lower than the surface below and while the sky would look absolutely barren for any outsider, sky bois make due.

      And yet, Skyward Sword ended on the surface.

      Is it really that crazy to wonder why Wind Waker couldn't?
    • From where I sit, yes, if for no other reason than the logistics involved in bringing people down from the sky were less of an issue than rebuilding under the Great Sea would be. Plus, lest we forget, other races were already living quite comfortably on the Surface in SS- it was just the humans (and even at that, only one subset of them, since the Sheikah were also already running around below) who needed to head on down. In WW, Old Hyrule is functionally empty of everyone, and multiple races would be screwed over without the Sea in the picture.

      Old Hyrule was not needed by the time of WW and could in fact become a liability if kept around, so Daphnes got rid of it so the people above the Sea could live without that baggage. Seems to me like a pretty good course of action, more so than getting rid of the Sea because two old men couldn't bear the idea of life without it when the rest of the world had long since adapted and moved on.
    • Display Spoiler

      gamtos wrote:

      MVS wrote:

      @gamtos I don't know if you are just trolling
      Why do people find it so hard to believe I have genuine strong opinions on this? Like, the tone might not be all that serious but I'm baffled otherwise.

      or trying to be funny
      I don't "try", I am gamtos.

      but first of all Hyrule isn't the western world with the same ethics and shit. In their world Link is probably considered an adult, and why wouldn't the king rely on him since he is the hero of winds?
      Alright, let's disregard the
      (sorry I just really thought the words "ethics and shit" were really funny, like I'm imagining my philosophy professor having a fit right now)
      Daphnes Nohanssen Hyrule had a moment of literal omnipotence. The most easily identifiable root problem of his entire country is standing two feet away from him. Like, any problem Hyrule had that you can think of, it's Ganon, and if it's not Ganon, it's still kinda Ganon.

      Ganon who fought the Hero of Time and came back anyways Ganon.
      Ganon whose subsequent havoc caused apocalyptic divine intervention Ganon.
      Ganon who also survived that Ganon.

      Link is really reliable but just the hero, some light arrows and a sword are, historically speaking, not a cure, just a bandaid. Heck, the Hero of Time could only weaken Ganon; it was the sages and Zelda that managed to seal him away.

      So if Daphnes knew anything about the history of the Hero of Time, relying on Link to fix the issue entirely would be very much repeating old mistakes.

      And since he made that wish he knew that Link (and Zelda) would prevail anyway so what is the problem?
      Well, he knew they'd have "hope" for a brighter future. I know this is nitpicking but really, two things here:
      • This is extremely vague. Like, if I were an evil genie, this wish would get granted in the least helpful way possible.
      • Tetra proceeds to get kidnapped in the next game and Link has to risk his life again to save her.
      Aside from that, Zelda gets backhanded by a man who's easily four times her size during the final fight. That part is inevitable regardless of how well the player fights. Even if that incredibly vague Triforce wish was protecting them from literal death, it certainly didn't protect Link or Zelda from harm.
      Harm which was in my opinion entirely unnecessary.

      MVS wrote:

      Why are you so obsessed with taking back the old Hyrule? It's not like there is overpopulation going on above anyway.
      My country lies below the sea level. When the waves rise into the sky, a great flood punishes my lands, drowning the soil. And when the clouds climb into the dark of night, a torrential rain suffocates the air. No matter where it comes, water carries the same thing... wet socks. But a dry ending to the Wind Waker would bring something other than suffering and ruin. I coveted that ending, I suppose.
      Basically put, old Hyrule seemed pretty neat, while the Great Sea sucks to the point Tetra wants to go off to find a new Hyrule, and Link is convinced enough to come along.

      MVS wrote:

      There is probably a lot of cultural and religious reasons behind his decision as well.
      I don't mean to tread on the king's
      but as long as we're not being told about those reasons, obviously the ending feels dumb.

      MVS wrote:

      I don't f***ing know, I just give you possible reasons.
      Hey, more power to you for it, but I'm not looking for potential ways to explain away the dumb parts of the ending. I'm here to say the ending just feels dumb to me and my reasons why.

      Guinea wrote:

      Dude saw his chance, took it, and spat out the first thing that came to mind.
      A hundred years under the ocean and a hastily blurted bad wish is all it amounted to. Still feels dumb.
      Especially if I was scared about Ganondorf being so close, my blurted wish would be more along the lines of "OhGodsoftheTriforce, HearmypraywhateverKILL GANONDORF!!!".

      gamtos wrote:

      MVS wrote:

      @gamtos I don't know if you are just trolling
      Why do people find it so hard to believe I have genuine strong opinions on this? Like, the tone might not be all that serious but I'm baffled otherwise.

      or trying to be funny
      I don't "try", I am gamtos.

      but first of all Hyrule isn't the western world with the same ethics and shit. In their world Link is probably considered an adult, and why wouldn't the king rely on him since he is the hero of winds?
      Alright, let's disregard the
      (sorry I just really thought the words "ethics and shit" were really funny, like I'm imagining my philosophy professor having a fit right now)
      Daphnes Nohanssen Hyrule had a moment of literal omnipotence. The most easily identifiable root problem of his entire country is standing two feet away from him. Like, any problem Hyrule had that you can think of, it's Ganon, and if it's not Ganon, it's still kinda Ganon.

      Ganon who fought the Hero of Time and came back anyways Ganon.
      Ganon whose subsequent havoc caused apocalyptic divine intervention Ganon.
      Ganon who also survived that Ganon.

      Link is really reliable but just the hero, some light arrows and a sword are, historically speaking, not a cure, just a bandaid. Heck, the Hero of Time could only weaken Ganon; it was the sages and Zelda that managed to seal him away.

      So if Daphnes knew anything about the history of the Hero of Time, relying on Link to fix the issue entirely would be very much repeating old mistakes.

      And since he made that wish he knew that Link (and Zelda) would prevail anyway so what is the problem?
      Well, he knew they'd have "hope" for a brighter future. I know this is nitpicking but really, two things here:
      • This is extremely vague. Like, if I were an evil genie, this wish would get granted in the least helpful way possible.
      • Tetra proceeds to get kidnapped in the next game and Link has to risk his life again to save her.
      Aside from that, Zelda gets backhanded by a man who's easily four times her size during the final fight. That part is inevitable regardless of how well the player fights. Even if that incredibly vague Triforce wish was protecting them from literal death, it certainly didn't protect Link or Zelda from harm.
      Harm which was in my opinion entirely unnecessary.

      MVS wrote:

      Why are you so obsessed with taking back the old Hyrule? It's not like there is overpopulation going on above anyway.
      My country lies below the sea level. When the waves rise into the sky, a great flood punishes my lands, drowning the soil. And when the clouds climb into the dark of night, a torrential rain suffocates the air. No matter where it comes, water carries the same thing... wet socks. But a dry ending to the Wind Waker would bring something other than suffering and ruin. I coveted that ending, I suppose.
      Basically put, old Hyrule seemed pretty neat, while the Great Sea sucks to the point Tetra wants to go off to find a new Hyrule, and Link is convinced enough to come along.

      MVS wrote:

      There is probably a lot of cultural and religious reasons behind his decision as well.
      I don't mean to tread on the king's
      but as long as we're not being told about those reasons, obviously the ending feels dumb.

      MVS wrote:

      I don't f***ing know, I just give you possible reasons.
      Hey, more power to you for it, but I'm not looking for potential ways to explain away the dumb parts of the ending. I'm here to say the ending just feels dumb to me and my reasons why.

      Guinea wrote:

      Dude saw his chance, took it, and spat out the first thing that came to mind.
      A hundred years under the ocean and a hastily blurted bad wish is all it amounted to. Still feels dumb.
      Especially if I was scared about Ganondorf being so close, my blurted wish would be more along the lines of "OhGodsoftheTriforce, HearmypraywhateverKILL GANONDORF!!!".


      So I went back to answer this since I didn't even read through everything last time, but I honestly don't know how to answer this exactly. Your entire post just seem to be reaching after straws, and I just get the feeling that you are just not liking the game and therefore are searching for "bad stuff" in it. My answer can pretty much be summarized as two points:

      1) Most of the stuff you wrote in this post I have already kinda given a good answer to earlier in the thread, and if not I myself so other people in the thread.

      2) It is a video game, you are thinking too much. Yes Zelda is a series and with most series where the stories interconnect there will be flaws, holes and "stupid things". These flaws in other respects in the Zelda series and the very attitudes of Aonuma and Miyamoto have made me stop caring about the timeline and story (for the most part) in the Zelda series. But Wind Waker is one of the few instances where I actually think that they did a pretty good job with the story. As a whole as a series however I think it is pretty bad.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by MVS ().

    • GregariousTree wrote:

      Nobody on the sea knew there was anything else. I don't see your point either.
      You just mentioned you didn't think that Daphnes would resurface Hyrule immediately.


      You earlier wrote:

      And I wasn't saying the king should have uprooted everybody then and there.


      The Deku Tree is slowly making a continent but for some reason it's a problem for you that Daphnes didn't make a redundant wish. That's why I don't understand your point.

      And yes there were people living on the continent already. So Tetra and like six dudes just show up and somehow become the ruling elite, reshaping the culture in their image? Seems unlikely but I suppose possible.
      It was a continent controlled by good spirits, one day a feisty leader with holy blood shows up and befriends them. Seems pretty simple.

      The Hylians who live on the Great Sea were screwed into living a worse life than their ancestors. That sucks. Rather than giving them a chance to reclaim the former, better way of life, the king decided to remove that possibility forever. Dick move.

      Citation needed.
      There's no indication that quality of life on the sea is worse than that of the mainland.
      And as was mentioned the Deku Tree is working on making a new continent, it's hardly removed forever.


      The rub is he didn't even protect them from having to deal with evil Demon Kings. He didn't accomplish anything but needlessly destroy Hyrule and endanger the lives of Link and Tetra. I don't see that as responsible or forward thinking.
      Granted destroy all demons would've been a pretty good wish.
      But what you and everyone else is failing to acknowledge is that the Triforce grants wishes of the heart. People can't consciously control their hearts to desire the most logical outcome, it's an issue inherent in the Triforce and why users can still be vulnerable even after using it.

      Edit: Also here is the wish in Japanese.

      Daphnes wrote:

      触れたる者の いかなる望みをもかなえる・・・
      The one who touches it will have his any wish granted…

      そう申したな、ガノンドロフ!
      Isn’t that what you said, Ganondorf!

      トライフォースの神々よ 我は望む!
      Gods of the Triforce, this is my wish!

      未来を! この子らに、希望ある 未来をあたえよ!
      A future! Give these children a future full of hope!

      過去の地ハイラルを消し去り この子らの未来に光明を!!
      Erase Hyrule, the land of the past. Give these children a bright future!!

      これで、我らの因縁も終わろう・・・ ガノンドロフよ、ハイラルと共に 沈むがよい!!!
      Now, let our destiny come to an end… Ganondorf, sink with Hyrule!!!
      As you can see, there's no real possibility of Link and Tetra dying if they're to get a 'bright future'.

      Furthermore as he's asking for Hyrule to be erased, for Ganondorf to sink with it and share said erasure, and for his destiny to end it's pretty clear he was wishing for a permanent finish to Ganondorf.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Fal Cie ().

    • @Setras To your first point, it is not my assumption that the Triforce will stick around and they'll use it forever to fix everything. Remember - at the least, I am suggesting that Hyrule could have remained in stasis beneath the waves for a time when the people could return to it. Although we got into a big tangent over the capabilities of the Triforce, that's not really what this thread is about. We're not discussing how they could use the Triforce to exodus the people, we're discussing whether or not the King's wish was a bad wish. I think it was.

      To your second point, that's already been addressed. Just because a way of life is peaceful doesn't mean it's a good way of life. I don't agree with you that the Great Sea has "comfortably supported life all across it" since the flood. There are exactly 2 small settlements of humans, Dragon Roost island for the Rito, and the Forest Haven for the Koroks. Almost every other island is a tiny speck or on fire or something. Do they need a sprawling land to settle and more resources? I suppose not - but we know that at least some of them wanted one, and I find the idea that Link and Tetra were literally the only people seeking for a new land kind of silly.

      Going back to my meta point, I also dislike this ending from the standpoint of the series. WW is a phenomenal game - it's sequels are not only mediocre, but increasingly un-Zelda-like. This isn't a complaint about why the King was wrong so much as it is a complaint about why the writers were wrong, but it applies. Where am I getting the notion from that the people needed a bigger place to live? Why am I so hung up on Old Hyrule? Because it's more interesting. The lore of Zelda, even though it's often contradictory and obviously takes a backseat to game design, is still a major reason why I play the Zelda games. Hyrule and the Triforce are a major part of that.

      To your third point, I guess I don't really see how that's relevant. Yeah, I suppose it would be tough. But we're not really talking about a game concept here. The logistics of returning to Hyrule aren't something I'm particularly interested in, not as much as the possibility of it. There are plenty of off-screen shenanigans that happen in the Zelda series. Transitioning from Hyrule to the Great Sea itself happened off screen, and must have been difficult, but it happened. I don't think you've only got the one shot with the Triforce to make it happen. Hyrule wasn't flooded the first time with the Triforce (as far as I'm aware).

      To your fourth point, this is what I was trying to address in my last point and I don't think I did a great job of it.

      GregariousTree wrote:

      You might say that's unfair, because obviously Daphnes could never cure all the evils in the world. That's true. But what's the fundamental difference between fighting the Demon King of country x versus fighting the Demon King of country y? Daphnes in his arrogance and hubris decided for an entire people without their consent that they should not get the blessings of the gods and should not get the opportunity to forge their own destinies. And they went out and forged their destinies anyway, only without the blessings that Daphnes condescendingly decided they would not have.
      I have already acknowledged that Daphnes couldn't ask for eternal peace and I'm not saying he should have tried. What I'm saying is that you and everyone else are saying that Hyrule was a cursed land that would have brought trouble to the people if it had been resurrected for no other reason than the game tells you that. I disagree with that. Look at what you wrote about New Hyrule:

      Setras wrote:

      yes, the people of the continent of New Hyrule were attacked by Malladus- but the Spirits of Good subdued him before Tetra and co. even got there, and generations of relatively technologically-advanced peace ensued, and even after Cole's incursion and Malladus' resurgence, he was eventually taken care of and peace returned
      You could say that almost word for word about Hyrule and just change the names around to reflect the events of various games.


      Yes, the people of Old Hyrule were attacked by Ganon - but the sages of old subdued him long before Link even got there (Take your pick, TP, ALttP, whichever game), and generations of relative peace ensued, and even after Zant/Agahnim/Vaati's incursion and Ganon's resurgence, he was eventually taken care of and peace returned.

      Hyrule was attacked several times, but also went through long stretches of prosperity. Daphnes just decided it was forever cursed and destroyed it, but it was also a blessed land chosen by the gods and all that jazz. And it's not like New Hyrule was all that different. The game tells you that there's no other choice but for Hyrule to be destroyed, but I just don't agree with it's logic.

      And again, why do we need the Triforce and the Master Sword and Hyrule? Because it's Zelda and it's more interesting. Where is the series gonna go from ST?
      A dark chase requires a silent hound, and deep roots are not reached by the frost.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by GregariousTree ().

    • I'm loving this thread

      Ftr there's no reason Daphness just couldn't have become a god and wrecked Ganon himself and undo the flood or something. People just never use the Triforce efficiently or in ways that aren't completely self-guided. Or just "unflood Hyrule" and have Link and Zelda fight him off.

      The King was a selfish prick who clung to the past as much as Ganon did, for him "leaving the past behind" involved leaving people on the sea to figure things out themselves, get kids into deadly situations, leave the greatest evil in the world to be beaten by them and destroy a whole kingdom and erase its history, just for the sake of a cute theme.

      He picked basically the lamest option.
    • Fal Cie wrote:

      The Deku Tree is slowly making a continent but for some reason it's a problem for you that Daphnes didn't make a redundant wish. That's why I don't understand your point.
      It's not redundant? The King destroyed Old Hyrule and buried the Master Sword and the Triforce. I like those things. A lot of my response to this I feel like was answered in my response to Setras, particularly in my quibble about the direction of the series. The sequels to WW are not great and I believe it's at least partially because WW shut the door so firmly on so much of what has always made Zelda great when it really didn't need to.

      Fal Cie wrote:

      It was a continent controlled by good spirits, one day a feisty leader with holy blood shows up and befriends them. Seems pretty simple.
      Okay. I guess I just... disagree with you? If you really think that literally nobody but Link and Tetra and a couple pirates settled New Hyrule then good on you. I don't see that as simple or likely.

      Fal Cie wrote:

      Citation needed.
      There's no indication that quality of life on the sea is worse than that of the mainland.
      And as was mentioned the Deku Tree is working on making a new continent, it's hardly removed forever.
      Citation:
      "The quality of life on the sea is worse than that of the mainland"
      -the opinion of me.

      It's not #lore that the Great Sea is worse than Hyrule. This is an opinion thread. I suppose I could quote at you again every reason I've already given for why I think the Great Sea isn't as grand as Hyrule. I really don't wanna type it all out again. Bullet points: few sparse populations, explorers looking for a new continent, golden land of prosperity vs. tiny islands, meta reason: not as interesting in the long run.

      I'm getting a little tired of repeating this, but just because a society is peaceful, it doesn't mean it's a great way to live. There's no indication that the majority of the people of the Great Sea are unhappy with their lives, not that their lives are just fine and dandy. See gamtos's comparison of the Great Sea to the Sky.


      Fal Cie wrote:

      Granted destroy all demons would've been a pretty good wish.
      But what you and everyone else is failing to acknowledge is that the Triforce grants wishes of the heart. People can't consciously control their hearts to desire the most logical outcome, it's an issue inherent in the Triforce and why users can still be vulnerable even after using it.
      I didn't argue for destroying all demons, refer to my response to Setras.

      Okay, cool the King wished a shitty wish from the heart instead of the head. I guess we can fault the writers of WW then. Doesn't change the fact it was a bad wish. Doesn't change the thread title.

      Fal Cie wrote:

      Furthermore as he's asking for Hyrule to be erased, for Ganondorf to sink with it and share said erasure, and for his destiny to end it's pretty clear he was wishing for a permanent finish to Ganondorf.
      Yeah, but that's the thing I've spent forever arguing. Gamtos brought it up too. He didn't need to destroy Hyrule to destroy Ganon or himself. The game just tells you that, but it doesn't make sense.

      See:

      GregariousTree wrote:

      Hyrule was attacked several times, but also went through long stretches of prosperity. Daphnes just decided it was forever cursed and destroyed it, but it was also a blessed land chosen by the gods and all that jazz. And it's not like New Hyrule was all that different. The game tells you that there's no other choice but for Hyrule to be destroyed, but I just don't agree with it's logic.

      gamtos wrote:

      What I greatly dislike is how everyone is bringing up possibilities on how Daphnes' wish could potentially make sense, but the devs leave it as some vague "seal the mistakes of the past and turn over a new page" platitudes that equate Ganondorf to Hyrule.
      A dark chase requires a silent hound, and deep roots are not reached by the frost.

      Post by Linkle ().

      This post was deleted by Evran_Speer: off-topic ().
    • GregariousTree wrote:

      It's not redundant? The King destroyed Old Hyrule and buried the Master Sword and the Triforce. I like those things. A lot of my response to this I feel like was answered in my response to Setras, particularly in my quibble about the direction of the series. The sequels to WW are not great and I believe it's at least partially because WW shut the door so firmly on so much of what has always made Zelda great when it really didn't need to.

      That's fair if you would prefer games to be set in old Hyrule and still feature the Master Sword. But as we already have two other timelines to put games of that nature it seems like a waste of a unique scenario.


      Okay. I guess I just... disagree with you? If you really think that literally nobody but Link and Tetra and a couple pirates settled New Hyrule then good on you. I don't see that as simple or likely.


      Citation:
      "The quality of life on the sea is worse than that of the mainland"
      -the opinion of me.
      It's not #lore that the Great Sea is worse than Hyrule. This is an opinion thread. I suppose I could quote at you again every reason I've already given for why I think the Great Sea isn't as grand as Hyrule. I really don't wanna type it all out again. Bullet points: few sparse populations, explorers looking for a new continent, golden land of prosperity vs. tiny islands, meta reason: not as interesting in the long run.
      I'm getting a little tired of repeating this, but just because a society is peaceful, it doesn't mean it's a great way to live. There's no indication that the majority of the people of the Great Sea are unhappy with their lives, not that their lives are just fine and dandy. See gamtos's comparison of the Great Sea to the Sky.
      If people want to live on a continent the solution is move, not take away the lifestyle everyone else is used to.
      But if I'm understanding you a little better your position isn't remove the ocean but let everyone use the portals to the undersea Hyrule?

      Okay, cool the King wished a shitty wish from the heart instead of the head. I guess we can fault the writers of WW then. Doesn't change the fact it was a bad wish. Doesn't change the thread title.

      Yeah, but that's the thing I've spent forever arguing. Gamtos brought it up too. He didn't need to destroy Hyrule to destroy Ganon or himself. The game just tells you that, but it doesn't make sense.
      The rule was established as early as ALttP, a necessary flaw to stop Ganon from being unstoppable.
      I can't fault the writers for the ending if the intention was diversify the timelines in case they ever need more sea games.
      They needed to destroy Hyrule so we can get games with a fresh start, it's wasted potential but it's not as though they're stopped from making more Hyrule games.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Evran_Speer ().

      Post by Linkle ().

      This post was deleted by Evran_Speer: Off-topic ().
    • GregariousTree wrote:

      Citation please? I don't remember anywhere in the Tower of the Gods where the Golden Goddesses are specifically named.

      When you view it in relation to Ocarina of Time, it makes sense. The Pearl of the Gods parallel the Spiritual Stones used to open the door of time in OOT. This is explicitly shown when the pearl of the gods which are directly related to the Three Goddesses do in fact open up the Tower of the Gods which acts as the gateway towards the Master Sword as the Temple of Time did in OOT. The Temple of Time which holds the key to the Sacred Realm was clearly the Goddess' work which means the Tower of the Gods refer to the Three Golden Goddesses.

      The Three Golden Goddesses were also the ones tasked with protecting the Sacred Realm and the Triforce by default (up until Hylia's introduction), so it does in fact make sense why it refers to the Goddesses. After all, why would they let any other God protect the Master Sword when they're the most suitable for the job to begin with?

      GregariousTree wrote:

      good point. This is an actual piece of evidence in your favor.

      Appreciate it.

      GregariousTree wrote:

      Can you give a specific example of someone directly referring to the Golden Goddesses as "the gods?" There's probably one in TP, I suppose. I can't recall.

      Sorry, that actually was an inference made based on the pearl of "the gods" which explicitly refer the Three Goddesses.

      GregariousTree wrote:

      This is where your argument falls completely apart. You are straight up ignoring stuff now that we've already talked about in this very thread. You want to know how not speculation it is that there are other gods worshiped in Hyrule and even on the Great Sea?


      If anything, we don't have any evidence that the Golden Goddesses have ever been actively worshipped. You can't throw a stone in Hyrule without hitting a god. You yourself called Demise and Ganondorf gods earlier.


      Then what other gods would be worshiped other than the ones who blessed them with the gift of life and a world to live in? Remember, the history of Hyrule and the creation of the Triforce is coveted by many which was left behind by the Three Goddesses and that legend had been passed on to many generations evident in OOT. People throughout history fought for this treasure. Because of the Triforce's legacy and prestige, it makes perfect sense that the Three Goddesses would be worshiped and even moreso that they would pray for them to put an end to Ganondorf's reign given that they can make any wish come true.


      So really? What other god would people believe in that has the power to stop Ganondorf? Do tell, I'm waiting.

      GregariousTree wrote:

      You mean like in the backstory to ALttP, where "the gods" lost their chosen hero and did absolutely nothing in response? And then there was a big war and a bunch of knights died and the sages had to seal Ganon in the Sacred Realm because they couldn't kill him and he escaped/resurrected himself a bunch of times and it ultimately led to what is literally known as the Downfall/Decline timeline? You know, the timeline where "the gods" didn't lift a finger to stop the many, many rampages of Ganon?

      My issue with this is that it's clearly established that the spirit of the hero is passed down through blood yet no blood can be passed on if the Hero of Time is already dead and yet we do have a chosen hero present that defeats Ganondorf. This already doesn't make sense to begin with. Fact of the matter is, there was a chosen hero present and he did stop Ganon, so there was no need to intervene. This is different from WW where there was no hope that there'd be hero to end Ganondorf's reign because the blood of the hero had left their world permanently and even after the Great Flood, no hero has ever appeared to take on the legacy of the Hero of Time until hundreds/many years have passed.

      Aside from that, you discredited yourself the moment you acknowledged that the Three Goddesses were directly involved when the Sacred Realm was in jeopardy during the Interloper War. Is this no different than sealing Ganondorf's power because the Triforce was in jeopardy because of his lust for its power?

      GregariousTree wrote:

      Here's my problem with your "fact" that the Triforce is not powerful enough to defeat Ganondorf outright: You are prioritizing a single line from a single video game that at best only indirectly and ambivalently supports your idea over a wealth of evidence to the contrary. To believe your idea we must:


      Because it's really that simple. You're denying that the Three Goddesses were directly involved in the Great Flood because if they were, your entire argument would fall apart. Because of that, it is important to clarify why "the gods" refer to the Three Golden Goddesses directly and I have effectively done so in my rebuttal.


      GregariousTree wrote:

      1. Believe that "the gods" mentioned in WW are in fact the Golden Goddesses and that they chose to flood Hyrule because it was the only thing they could do, not because they chose to, neither of which is required by the line you provided.
      2. Believe that the Triforce functions exactly equivalent to the power of the Goddesses, with the same limitations, something we are not bound to do.
      3. Ignore the multiple direct statements about the power of the Triforce from multiple games.
      4. Ignore the fact that we have in fact seen a wish from the Triforce kill a god.
      5. Ignore the fact that Ganondorf is not a god, as evidenced by the fact that he can be killed by an adequately strong hero, even without the Master Sword.
      6. Ignore the fact that Ganondorf's power comes from the Golden Goddesses, as revealed by TP, and thus it would be strange if Ganondorf was granted power by the Goddesses that they themselves did not have.

      1. What're you talking about? It's explicitly stated that the Three Goddesses responded to the pleas of many which requested them to stop Ganondorf and the only thing they can do was to seal Ganondorf. I hope you're not suggesting that "the gods" are retarded for taking people to the mountaintops and ultimately destroying their way of life when they could've just ended Ganondorf's life in a blink of an eye.

      2. Because it is literally their power. It isn't a creation of the Divine Beasts or the Goddess Sword left by Hylia, it is infact their power and each fragment embodies each of the Goddess' characteristics.

      3. The only mistake I made was misconstruing OOT Zelda's plans and that was my fault. It's been awhile since I played the game.

      4. You mean in a game that succeeds Wind Waker by many years. There is no proof that this is what the writer's had intended the Triforce to do at that point. All that's stated is that it can lead the land into prosperity depending on the person's heart. Fortunately, given that the Hero of Time's legacy is very much respected, Daphnes spoke from his heart and had complete faith in WW Link after Link lives up to the Hero of Time's legacy. Doesn't get any simpler than that.

      5. Didn't state that he was, only that he was portrayed as such.

      6. Difficult to say since Ganondorf is capable of his own dark magic given that he was raised by Twinrova, but I will agree that it is arguable and is an oversight of mine.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Cornelius Fudge ().

      Post by Inevitable ().

      This post was deleted by Evran_Speer: Off-topic ().
    • zelda.gamepedia.com/Goddess_Pearls
      Where did you get the idea they were called the pearls of the gods

      Then what other gods would be worshiped other than the ones who blessed them with the gift of life and a world to live in?


      Zephos and Cyclos, weather Gods, would be easy candidates for causing a torrential pour.

      Hylia is worshipped far more directly than the GG ever were.

      Valoo, Jabun and the GDT all speak ancient Hylian and are considered guardian deities.
      The story goes that the chosen people of Hyrule were commanded by the gods to take refuge on the mountaintops, and now there are people on those mountaintops living with gods. Draw your own conclusion.

      Even if they besieged the Goddesses, it's more likely they made a Triforce wish, as depicted here:


      So really? What other god would people believe in that has the power to stop Ganondorf? Do tell, I'm waiting.
      Respond with this smug tone again and you can keep waiting indefinitely because I'll stop responding.

      My issue with this is that it's clearly established that the spirit of the hero is passed down through blood
      Demise cursed the Spirit of the Hero and the Blood of the Goddess.

      Even though there are cases of bloodline descendants being heroes, it is not a necessity, unlike with Zelda.
      the Three Goddesses were directly involved when the Sacred Realm was in jeopardy during the Interloper War
      The Light Spirits were directly involved, the Goddesses were giving commands.


      [/quo

      Post by gamtos ().

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      Post by Guinea ().

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