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    About BotW's Knighthood Ceremony
    • misisme33 wrote:

      So isn't that cherry picking then? When the address is the hero, we don't attribute the Master Sword skyward, through time, or in twilight. We attribute those acts to the hero while acknowledging the Master Sword was there. In essence, the Hero is the active party doing the acts and the Sword is the passive party (essentially a tool).
      No, I wouldn't say it is considering SS has already confirmed that the hero and the Master Sword are eternally "linked" (lack of better term at the moment). So once its drawn it goes where Link goes. Besides, something like crossing the sea isn't exactly something that is exclusively deliberate. And since the sword's soul is together with the hero's soul, when the hero seeks the gold - yes the sword is seeking the gold together with the hero. After all, even the ceremony itself doesn't treat Link or the sword like "active" or "passive" parties. The ceremony treats the hero and the sword as two halves of one necessary part of the resistance against Ganon; much like SS does (or Demise in SS's case, of course...)
    • The ceremony only shows that they are together, not that they are doing the same thing per adventure. "Linked" doesn't mean equal, not? In BOTW Legend, the Hero and the Princess are always working together but their roles aren't equal.




      Think of it this way. BOTW knows about the Hero who defeated C.Ganon 10k years ago...no one says that Master Sword defeated C.Ganon 10k years ago. The only thing that Master Sword is noted for is "choosing" the hero. It was the hero that worked with Zelda to seal C.Ganon (with the help of the shekiah beasts and guardians).
    • There's no need to bless the sword itself unless the sword is an equally important part to defeating Ganon. Just do like they did in England and knight the actual hero and get on with it. Though the legend doesn't tell about the sword with the hero, still somehow specifically blessing the sword as well as the hero survived an entire 10,000+ years! And like I said, crossing the sea on somebody's back still counts as crossing the sea. The 2nd part of the speech is merely saying "where the hero goes, you are there too." Hence the very next line after.
    • The Baton of the Wind wrote:

      There's no need to bless the sword itself unless the sword is an equally important part to defeating Ganon. Just do like they did in England and knight the actual hero and get on with it. Though the legend doesn't tell about the sword with the hero, still somehow specifically blessing the sword as well as the hero survived an entire 10,000+ years! And like I said, crossing the sea on somebody's back still counts as crossing the sea. The 2nd part of the speech is merely saying "where the hero goes, you are there too." Hence the very next line after.
      Is it not? In all the examples of the former heroes in the ceremony, all of them had master swords. Hero Red (the who defeated C.Ganon) had the master sword. I thought that was why the Master Sword was being blessed because that weapon has been used in all the adventures prior (SS, OoT, and TP). Even in the scenario that the ceremony is referencing LTTP Link and WW Link, all of them used the master sword. So I think it's safe the say the master sword is equally as important as the hero. I don't subscribe to the idea that they do the same job. The Hero doesn't seal away evil and the sword isn't given the title of Hero.
    • I agree. They are equally important. That's the point I was making. So in addition to being spiritually linked/bound/connected (however we put it) they are equally important halves of the resistance against Ganon. That's why it is important that the sword be blessed in the same ceremony as the hero, as opposed to blessing only the hero as "just a knight using a mere tool." The ceremony treats them as two equally important parts to resisting Ganon. The speech spreads the 5 references between the hero and his "trusty sword", since in each of those legends they were both - together - the reason Ganon has been prevented from taking Hyrule. ALttP, OoT, TWW, TP, & SS are 5 prominent examples of the hero and the MS working together to subdue Ganon.
    • But you would agree that structurally this is off no? I am going to bollow this from someone named Hyrule Anthology from reddit.


      "
      This prayer, which we’ll call “Hylia’s Blessing”, follows a simple six line formula:


      LINE 1 (and 7) addresses the subject of the prayer:


      退魔の剣に選ばれしハイラルの勇者よ
      Hero of Hyrule chosen by the demon-bane sword

      はるか遠き過去に生まれし退魔の剣よ
      Demon-bane sword born in a distant past
      [/quote]

      LINE 2 (8) addresses the attributes of the subject:


      そのたゆまぬ努力と結実せし剣技を認め
      By recognizing steady effort and successful swordsmanship

      勇者と共にハイラルの祝福を補う者よ
      You who bring blessings to Hyrule alongside the hero
      [/quote]
      LINE 3 (9) grants the subject blessing in the name of the Goddess Hylia:


      女神ハイリアの名において祝福を授けん
      I grant you blessing in the name of the Goddess Hylia

      女神ハイリアの名において祝福を授けよう
      I grant you blessings in the name of Goddess Hylia
      [/quote]


      LINE 4 (10) references the subject’s past adventures:


      空を舞い 時を巡り 黄昏に染まろうとも
      Even if you dance the skies, you travel through time or you are dyed in twilight

      海を越え 神の作れし黄金の を求めん時
      You cross the seas when you seek the gold made by the gods
      [/quote]
      LINE 5 (11) says that both subjects will always be together during similar future adventures:

      結ばれし剣は勇者の魂と共に
      The bonded blade shall always be along the hero's soul

      そなたの姿は常に勇者と共にあり
      May you always be alongside the hero.
      [/quote]
      And LINE 6 (12) is the conclusion of the prayer, in the form of a request for power:

      さらなる力がそなたとそして退魔の剣に宿らんことを
      I pray so that further power lodges in you and your demon-bane sword

      退魔の剣とハイラルの勇者にさらなる力が宿らんことを
      I pray so that further power lodges into the Demon-bane sword and the hero of Hyrule
      [/quote]+
      "
      this is the structure i mean. Note that the japanese is the same source that I usd before.

      Can't get rid to the "+" but this ist he s
    • Structurally, its perfect. What would be the difference between mentioning two adventures for the sword and mentioning just one adventure exacty? What does mentioning more than one adventure for the sword do to it other than add to the number? After all, they list three for the hero; and clearly those aren't meant to be portrayed as one adventure since the Japanese put spaces in between to differenciate them. Besides we know better that those are clearly separate references to past games. Why do the two adventures mentioned when blessing the sword, which are also separated by a space in the Japanese, not follow the same logic and only count as one adventure?

      I know he translates it as one sentence but in doing so he is being inconsistent because he separates the first three because of the spaces between them but then ignores the space between "crossing the seas" and "seeking the gold."
    • "What would be the difference between mentioning two adventures for the sword and mentioning just one adventure exacty?"

      I guess legitimacy. The Master Sword in BOTW is only credited to choosing the hero and being bonded with the HIM never doing the same role as him. Those two adventures are not done by the sword.


      "What does mentioning more than one adventure for the sword do to it other than add to the number?"

      Legitimacy because the sword didn't do that adventure. The whole point of the second ceremony was to address the master sword. But maybe in the japanese the ceremony isn't as personalized in langauge as it is in english.

      Can you translate this for me (if it's not too much trouble)

      退魔の剣に選ばれしハイラルの勇者よそのたゆまぬ努力と結実せし剣技を認め女神ハイリアの名において祝福を授けん空を舞い時を廻り黄昏に染まろうとも結ばれし剣は勇者の魂と共に遥か遠き過去に生まれし退魔の剣よ勇者と共にハイラルの守護を担う者よ女神ハイリアの名において祝福を授けん海を越え神の作りし黄金を求めんときそなたの姿常に勇者と共にあり退魔の剣とハイラルの勇者にさらなる力宿らんことを

      or more specifically this portion

      遥か遠き過去に生まれし退魔の剣よ勇者と共にハイラルの守護を担う者よ女神ハイリアの名において祝福を授けん海を越え神の作りし黄金を求めんときそなたの姿常に勇者と共にあり退魔の剣とハイラルの勇者にさらなる力宿らんことを



      "Why do the two adventures mentioned when blessing the sword, which are also separated by a space in the Japanese, not follow the same logic and only count as one adventure?"

      Because legitimacy. We know the Master Sword didn't do those things yet the adventures are in the same structurally place as the adventures of he Hero in the former "stanza" (?) Do we know that former heroes did those things, yes. However they aren't mentioned in the section dealing with the Hero (which would also acknowledge them as having the soul of the hero).
    • That's the thing, though. The whole point to blessing the sword is because it is going to be together with the hero and while not the hero the sword is still treated as equally important as the hero. If the sword is just a tool, then there's no reason to bless the sword at all. Just bless he who is using his tool. But the ceremony treats the sword as more than that.

      Following the lore SS established, the ceremony recognises that within the sword dwells a spirit that is linked to the hero's soul, ergo has the same aspiration as the hero: To defeat Ganon. And so the sword will forever be bonded with the hero whether crossing the sea or seeking the gold. That, after all, is the whole reason the sword itself exists. Fi explains this in SS. In the first part of the ceremony, the same applies. The sword danced in the skies with the hero, the sword travelled through time with the hero, and it was dyed in Twilight the same as the hero.

      The ceremony is simply saying no matter what the circumstance, these two will be there to subdue Ganon. It doesn't separate the two, not between "human & tool" or between "passive & active", it counts them as one unit tackling the same task together as one cannot do without the other.
    • Then why does the line

      "を授けん海を越え神の作りし黄金を求めんときそなたの姿常に勇者と共にあり"

      imply that it is the master sword doing the actions, not the hero. I think that is what you are not getting that I am trying to explain. I don't know if that is how it works in the japanese (hence why I asked for your own translation) but as it is written in english there are two portions of the speech; one for the hero and one for the master sword. I say that because there are two addresses.

      The Hero portion is personalized to the Hero. Wither the hero is skyward bound adrfit in time or dyed in embers, the master sword will always be there. It's not saying the Master Sword did those things but that it was there while the action was being done by the Hero.


      The pattern should follow that (since the portion is personalized to the master sword). Wither the sword is crossing seas or looking for the triforce, the hero will always be there. It's not saying that Hero did those things but that he was there while the action was being done by the Master Sword


      Im not understanding why you are equating the actions of the sword to that of the hero, when the portion is personalized to the sword. I don't see a reason why the Hero section wouldn't include the adventures of the former heroes (WW and LTTP) in the same place other heroes adventures are mentioned (SS, OoT, and TP). If Nintendo wanted things to seem ambigious put all the heroes in the same place.
    • It is saying they did all five together. They're not mentioning the five altogether because both have to be blessed, and so they spread them out since they all apply to both. If we take the specific events out, its the same but inverted; to address each of the two and to apply one to the other:

      "No matter what happens, the sword will be there"
      "No matter what happens, the hero will be there"

      The fact that they're not altogether in one of the two blessings is because they are both being addressed.
    • Im not really getting an answer to my question from your comment and in fact make it more confusing.

      "why does the line


      "を授けん海を越え神の作りし黄金を求めんときそなたの姿常に勇者と共にあり"


      imply that it is the master sword doing the actions, not the hero."


      It makes no sense to scatter praises to the heroes throughout the whole ceremony when you can put them in one place and all will be blessed there. Even then, that doesn't explain why the two heroes are in a section of the ceremony that is personalized to the Master Sword. If the praises were going to be scattered then the ceremony would have no reason to be sectioned.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by misisme33 ().

    • The reason they address them both individually is to specifically bless each of them, because they are both important to the mission, rather than just doing a blanket blessing on them both at once. And so as all five legends apply to them both, it doesn't matter if some are mentioned while blessing one and some others while blessing the other. They're both treated as doing them all.

      So for you to say it is implying the sword did the actions is wrong, because it doesn't imply that at all. It is clearly stating that they're both doing these things.

      You asked me for a translation specifically from me, and while at the moment I cannot simply translate the whole speech word-for-word I can at least do the four lines in question. The majority of it is well understood anyways, but it seems this seems to be a point of misunderstanding. Sorry its taken this long, I've been replying in the meantime until I got the chance to sit down on my actual computer to translate it

      Zelda wrote:

      空を舞い 時を廻り 黄昏に染まろうとも
      When dancing in the skies, travelling through time, or dyed in twilight

      結ばれし剣は勇者の魂と共に
      The bound sword will be together with the soul of the hero

      ...


      海を越え 神の作りし黄金を求めんとき
      When crossing the seas or seeking the gold created by the gods

      そなたの姿 常に勇者と共にあり
      You will always be together with the hero
      First of the four line:
      空を舞い 時を廻り 黄昏に染まろうとも
      [ 空を舞い ] To dance in the sky
      [ 時を廻り ] To go around in time
      [ 黄昏に染まろう ] To be dyed in dusk/Twilight
      [ とも ] Here is a particle used to combine the previous ideas with the next line or sentence to express when the action(s) took place
      And the three ideas in that line are separated by spaces to express that these are different events taking place
      Second line:
      結ばれし剣は勇者の魂と共に

      [ 結ばれ ] To be tied, fastened, or bound to
      [ し ] Applies the previous idea to the subject
      [ 剣は ] Tells us the subject is the sword
      [ 勇者の魂 ] Soul of the hero
      [ と共に ] To be together with, [ と ] being the indication of what the subject is being connected to
      Third line:
      海を越え 神の作りし黄金を求めんとき

      [ 海を越え ] To cross the sea
      [ 神の作りし ] Made/Created by the gods
      [ 黄金を ] Gold
      [ 求めん ] To ask for, to demand for something, or to seek
      [ とき ] Once again, this is a particle used to combine the previous ideas to the next line/sentence to express when the action(s) took place
      And just like the first line, the two ideas here are separated by a space to express that these are different events taking place
      Fourth line:
      そなたの姿 常に勇者と共にあり

      [ そなたの ] Your - [ そなた ] is sometimes used when addressing a person near the listener. So here Zelda is speaking to the sword as if it is a person; or if you will - as if she is talking to Fi.
      [ 姿 ] Figure, form, shape, appearance, etc.
      [ 常に ] Constantly or always
      [ 勇者 ] Hero
      [ と共に ] To be together with, [ と ] being the indication of what the subject is being connected to
      [ あり ] This is the obligatory ending particle to the sentence, but note this is an older form (ari) of the particle typically used today (aru) so Zelda is talking in an old fashioned manner. Not important, just a cool touch.
      Also note the space after [ そなたの姿 ]. This is done to put the importance on the one she is talking to, as opposed to simply putting [ は ]. Both would make the person the subject, just one is there basically to make them more of a prominent part of that line.

      That is why I say, because of the language used in the speech itself I am quite sure it is making reference to five heroes and not just three. The other two don't lose any legitimacy simply because they were used in blessing the sword; on the contrary since the two of them are treated as a team each of the five examples apply to both of them.
    • The hero and the sword, together.

      I'll put it this way:

      "When you cross the seas together or seek the gold made by the gods together
      You will always be together with the hero."

      Because the Japanese doesn't specify that it is only the subject doing these things, but in context the blessing is about both of them working together to defeat Ganon through the ages. Like I said, the ceremony treats the Master Sword as if it has a soul the same as it treats the hero who has a soul. Zelda is speaking to the sword like she would speak to Fi. They're addressed individually to bless the two of them through this ceremony because they are equally important to defeating Ganon. The idea in the ceremony is that the hero has never done the things he/they did without the sword, and that the sword has not done the things its done to fulfill its purpose without the hero.
    • Nope.

      Just look at the 1st and 3rd of the four lines in my post. And I could do the same demonstration for that like I did with the other:

      "When you dance in the skies together, when you travel through time together, or when you are both dyed in twilight together

      The bound sword is together with the hero."

      It is talking about them as if they're never apart when these things are taking place. Its the one constant between all five examples, the sword and the hero together.