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    gamtos & friends vs. YouTube - requests welcome!

    • Ahh, Youtube theories about videogames.
      Hours upon hours of hard work crafting moving imagery to go along the voiced script meticulously written to properly build up hype and suspense, often laden with meme-y injokes and long explanations of the foundations of the series leading up to a possible conclusion.

      The only issue is, sometimes the theorist is simply wrong and at times, obnoxiously wrong :ironic:

      Zelda Universe embraces the philosophy of everlasting debate about the tiniest details, picking theories to shreds and burning the remains in the hopes that from the ashes, a proper answer may arise.
      YouTube on the other hand, feels more like a TED talk; if you disagree, you're welcome to take the stage to refute whoever is orating afterwards. Provided you're a highly influential and known content creator who can't make a point without stretching it over 10 minutes to get that sweet sweet adsense.
      Going into the comment section is basically like going to the ocean and throwing your message in a bottle to the indifferent waves. Your audience is most likely going to be the mental equivalent of fish and mollusks that picked up some choice expletives from sailors.

      So if like me, you absolutely loathe how the most famous Zelda theorists are people who sometimes fling turds into the masses from their impenetrable ivory tower, here's a thread to voice your disagreement about a shitty Youtube theory to a group of people who actually know things about the series without resorting to edgy fanfiction :cookiemonster:

      ========================================================================================================

      Let me kick this thread off by giving an example of how this thread works, more or less, by immediately going on the warpath against the theory that many seasoned theorists on this board have lost hairs over in frustration:

      Game theory: Is Link Dead in Majora's Mask?



      (Disclaimer: gamtos hates fun and gets irrationally angry at the sound of Matthew Patrick's voice)

      Abbreviated version and watch guide:
      1. The first minute and 39 seconds are an absurdly long intro intended to amuse long-time viewers and fans of Peanut Butter Gamer. If you're neither, skip this.
      2. Supposedly, the five areas of Majora's Mask mirror the five stages of the Kubler-Ross Model of Grief, a psychological model that states if someone is confronted with DEATH, they go through five emotional phases.
        1. Clock Town is Denial, because "all the people" in Clock Town are in denial of the moon falling.
        2. Woodfall is Anger, because the Deku King is angry. Anger as a stage of grief is pointlessly lashing out at anyone and anything, mirroring how the Deku King treats the monkey.
        3. Snowhead is Bargaining, where the grieving party is pointlessly appealing to either a higher power, bemoaning what they should have done or clinging to very unlikely strands of hope. All to regain a semblance of control. The argument is that Darmani is bargaining by asking Link to revive him with his magic, somehow hoping to escape the inevitability of his death.
        4. Great Bay is depression, where the grieving person is unable to muster the energy to deny, be angry, bargain or recover. They retreat inwards. Lulu is used here as she has lost her voice along with her children and now just stares at the ocean.
        5. Ikana Valley is acceptance, because Link helps people come to terms with their death and because people reach "enlightenment" in the Stone Tower by climbing upwards and receiving the Light Arrows. Also, the Garo Master is described as "emptiness cloaked in darkness" so defeating him = defeating grief = acceptance. Also he commits suicide.
      3. Matpat proceeds to ask at 5:38 what Link is grieving. He points out that maybe Navi died and Link is grieving HER loss, but dismisses that as he thinks there is more evidence to suggest Link is in purgatory and the game is about Link accepting his death.
        1. Termina = Terminal = death.
        2. Termina is definitely not next to Hyrule because the weird moon can't be seen in Hyrule.
        3. Link fell a very far way and should not have survived.
        4. The intro mirrors Alice in Wonderland which turned out to be a bad dream.
        5. Epona is transported ridiculously far in a very short time so Termina isn't real.
        6. The NPC copies in Termina mirror Dorothy's story in the Wizard of Oz where all her relatives played an entirely different role while she was dreaming of the land of Oz.
        7. The transformation masks all belong to dead characters. The Elegy of Emptiness allows you to create clones of these dead people, and Link gets a clone, ergo Link is also dead.
      4. From 9:13 on, he goes on about how Link's supposed death fits into the timeline.
        1. The Hero's Shade from Twilight Princess is called the Hero of Time in Hyrule Historia. Matpat bolsters this by saying that the Hero's Shade is left-handed and the Howling Stones feature songs from Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask.
        2. Ocarina of Time states that those who become lost in the woods are fated to become a Stalfos.
        3. The Hero's Shade is shackled to the mortal realm because he was unable to pass on his teachings. Matpat blames this on Link dying prematurely and becoming a Stalfos in the Lost Woods.
      5. At 10:31, Matpat says that the Happy Mask Salesman's arc words "you've met with a terrible fate, haven't you?" indicate Link's death, also because it shows up after Link lets the moon crash.
      6. 11:22 Matpat acknowledges that ultimately, dead or not, Majora's Mask is a very deep and artistic game and can be interpreted in any number of ways and people will see what they want to see.
      7. A GYAAAAAME THEORY :ghirahim:
      To refute this theory, I'm just gonna address these by number and give my interpretation as a tiny bonus near the end.
      Starting with:

      The entire premise of the video.

      In the world of media theories, there's a very pervasive, go-to way of making sure a theory spreads, and it usually leaves a bad aftertaste because it's a cliched narrative trope that lives off of shock-value and repackaging Plato's Allegory of the Cave to appear deep.



      Basically, the easiest and most universally applicable theory to almost anything is the idea that an important character is either dead, in a coma, dying, mentally ill or dreaming to escape their depressing lives, and we're just never explicitly told by the creators. TFW your CHILDHOOD RUINED, am I right, GAMERS? SMASH that SUBSCRIBE button Audible has over 10.000 books check out my Patreon.

      (Disclaimer: gamtos is an old and joyless man.)

      What these theories have in common is that they are unnecessarily edgy and do not accept the idea of anything in fiction being zany, magical, whimsical or generally happy.
      It's incredibly easy to slap this idea on to any piece of media, and these theories do not gain traction because of their strong arguments but rather because their shock value matters more than logic. The Ancient Cistern is based on a Buddhist allegory, that's neat, but what if I told you that ZELDA IS DEAD IN SKYWARD SWORD but also LINK IN BOTW IS ACTUALLY DARK LINK???!!

      And this misery porn / soap opera plot interpretation is unfortunately what Matpat thrives on.




      Mario is a psychopath, Earthbound is even more twisted, Cappy is evil, E. Gadd is a criminal puppeteer, Pokemon are victims to what looks like real life animal abuse, the Triforce is evil, Peach is banging either Bowser or Luigi or Waluigi or whatever and she's also dead, Phoenix Wright is a criminal, Miis have a tragic origin, Rosalina is Luigi and Peach's time travelling wonderchild, Ness is dead and depressed and plays the trombone, "The Origin of Zelda's Epona will RUIN your Childhood", Toad is terrifying, and every single attack in videogames would gruesomely murder you in real life.

      As such, anything that comes from "Game Theory" does not always aim for the most logical conclusion, but rather the most upsetting and controversial one. Right from the get-go, anyone familiar with media theories are getting a huge sigh moment because they know where this video is going and why the title is how it is.

      Aside from that, PBG's character solely exists to ask the initial baffled question and then is completely swayed by everything Matpat says, thereby removing any purpose behind the idea of having a dialogue between the two YouTubers and making PBG just a face that sometimes shows up for no particular reason other than fanservice. The lack of Devil's Advocate in the video is palpable, with no one questioning the conclusions Matpat is drawing at almost any point of the video aside from the classic "if you disagree remember this is JUST A THEORY" get-out-of-being-called-a-hack-free-card.

      Section 2: The stages of grief.

      The grief theory is a famous one that was floating around for a while before Matpat got his grubby little paws on it. While at first the connections seem to make sense, and I have to admit there are some very nice thematic parallels, the logical fallacy being used in this argument and many others is massive cherry picking.
      Let's look at the characters that are used to prove these steps:
      1. Predominantly Mutoh as the face of denial.
      2. The Deku King (and arguably his daughter) as the face of anger.
      3. Lulu as the face of depression.
      4. Darmani III as the face of bargaining.
      5. Sharp as the face of acceptance.


      Now, here's what these characters have in common:

      ~ Jack Shit. ~

      They are sometimes the deceased hero, sometimes the antagonist, sometimes the hapless victim close to the deceased hero, and in the case of Mutoh, a randomly picked NPC that fits the narrative.

      Clock Town is filled with denizens who take issue with the moon, and by the third day, Mutoh is only one of the very few left. Some flee, some meet the end with a drink in hand, some latch on to their jobs, some cower in fear and pray to be saved, and hell, Mutoh eventually shouts at the moon to just fall already. To say the whole town is in denial is an extremely gross exaggeration, especially because it's the only town where people actually even bother to talk about how scary the moon is to them.

      The Deku Butler is dealing with grief but certainly not anger. The Deku Princess' anger is justified and productive and aimed at the right people, ergo not the Kubler Ross definition.

      Mikau is every bit as much bargaining as Darmani is, but because Lulu fits the depression narrative better, she is treated as the face of Great Bay.

      The Goron Elder's Son is crying out of impotent sadness and anger, not bargaining. No one else really exhibits any sign of bargaining either, and arguably since Link does control Darmani's resurrection, it can't even be counted as the futile kind of bargaining that Kubler Ross indicates.

      And for Ikana, suddenly, the theory focuses on the after state of the region rather than the initial state. People reach acceptance only after Link solves their problems. Sharp's lashing out at people is treated as eventual acceptance rather than his current display of anger.
      Defeating an enemy is now considered reaching acceptance, despite Link doing this throughout the entire game.
      Link's journey up into the Stone Tower is called "reaching enlightenment", ignoring the entire second half of the dungeon where up becomes down.

      All of this just ties into the fact that while the grief theory still has its merits, its easily-found myriads of flaws are never brought up or talked about.

      Section 3: Termina is Purgatory



      This is where y'all are gonna turn against me because for a large part, I can actually agree.
      Point one though, according to Word of God, "Terminal" here is used as its noun definition; a station on a transport route. A place where people come and go. Not the adjective form about deadly conditions. And that's a huge blow against the idea that Termina's world is an afterlife.

      But the astrology comment makes sense; Termina definitely does not seem to be part of the world of Hyrule, Aonuma interview from 2015 be damned.
      Epona's sudden transport IS weird. The intro DOES resemble Alice in Wonderland. The NPC's ARE twisted copies of Hyrule's inhabitants, Oz-style.
      All of that makes sense, and I'm not going to deny something is odd about Termina.

      Problem is, when did Link ever meet these guys in Hyrule?



      And before we state he just has an active imagination:



      Gorman and the Postman had Hyrule counterparts, sure, but their ancestors from Hyrule have the same names / occupations as the Terminans.
      And Tingle does not even slightly appear in OoT, but his ancestors are definitely real in Hyrule.

      Then there's the argument Link should not have survived his initial fall. He lands on a Deku Flower though, which actually negates all fall-damage in the game.

      The Elegy of Emptiness statue argument bothers me as well. Firstly, the reasoning that because the four transformation masks that all have distinct statues are based on dead people, so should Link. Matpat goes on and on about them being funeral memorial effigies for the dead without any real base in what's said about the song.
      He's equating correlation with causation here, that dead people getting statues means all statues are novelty headstones.
      An entirely different plausible argument is that the Elegy of Emptiness creates a soulless copy of Link's physical form, thereby removing the element of death entirely. And both the name of the song and Igos' description of it match this interpretation to a T.


      Even so, if we want to bring death back into the equation, just look at the white eyes of Darmani and Mikau or even the listless red of the Deku Butler's son missing that characteristic yellow glow, and now look at statue-Link's eyes.



      Unlike the 100% eye whites of the other statues, Link's statue would indicate he's alive, and keen on brushing his teeth.

      I've been throwing around agreement and disagreement about this section, and that leads me to an alternate interpretation given by Hyrule Encyclopedia which I defend here.
      My largest reason for championing that interpretation over Matpat's is my sense that Majora's Mask is not about grieving the death of a loved one; it is about forgiving and believing in the friends you parted ways with. It's Skull Kid and the Four Giants becoming friends again. It's Link accepting his separation from Navi because he's still capable of making new friends and fighting evil. It is about Anju and Kafei holding on to hope, about Igos' du Ikana's words about forgiving your friends.

      It's about something not edgy and stupid.

      Section 4: The Stalfos of Time.

      Now, the easiest, and shortest thing I have to get out of the way first: There is no logical way for Link to have died at such a young age and become the Hero's Shade from Twilight Princess if you go by Hyrule Historia's word. And the best part is that Matpat delivers this proof himself, yet conveniently doesn't mention it.



      Note the words "The spirit of Link's ancestor". This statement is mirrored in Hyrule Historia page 115, and the Hero's Shade calls Link "son" in a dramatic fashion which is a weird thing to name a non-relative.

      The issue with this bit is that Link could not have descendants if he left Hyrule as a child and unceremoniously died in the woods.

      Now, I have two theories for how this oversight could have somehow made it into the video:
      1. Matpat is a hack.
      2. Matpat is a lying sensationalist hack.
      Even putting that aside, let's take a look at the idea that Link died in the woods and became a Stalfos, regardless of the nitty-gritty about how babies work.




      The Stal family of Twilight Princess have a fairly unified design. Inhuman skeletal structure, all physical bone, and completely void of rational conversation.

      The Hero's Shade is:
      • Very much humanoid in shape.
      • Has one hud po-cent fleshblud leggies and arms rather than bones.
      • Does not even exist in the physical world, taking on the shape of a golden wolf instead.
      At best, the shade looks most like these guys:



      Ghost who died in the line of duty wearing the clothes they wore at the time of death, invisible to the living humans.

      Some other issues:
      • The woods at the start of Majora's Mask are never called the Lost Woods.
      • The lore also states that children who get lost in the Lost Woods become Skull Kids, not Stalfos.
      • The Hero's Shade's appearance is absolutely nothing like an adolescent boy in a green tunic, and nothing about his appearance is mirrored in his supposed "purgatory".
      To put it shortly, if the Hero's Shade is the Hero of Time, he most certainly did not die anywhere near the Lost Woods in his child form.

      Section 5: The Happy Ma--

      No. This is just something that gets said at the start of the game, and is ironically echoed at the end to indicate both:
      - how the statement can apply to Link's failure and
      - how time has rewound back to the dawn of the first day, when we had that conversation.

      This has already taken me too long and I am done with pointing out the easy.

      In conclusion, this theory is rife with holes and does not deserve the mindless parroting it gets everywhere I go and also I don't like Matpat.

      ========================================================================================================

      So there you have it folks, the way this thread works. By no means do you have to go into this level of detail.

      Hope it's as cathartic for you guys as it was for me. Stay tuned because I'll be using this thread more often.
    • gamtos wrote:

      Game theory: Is Link Dead in Majora's Mask?
      Link is dead. Link remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become Links simply to appear worthy of it?
      When the gods drave me forth to toil and assailed me with thirst and beat me down with hunger, then I prayed to the gods. When the gods smote the cities wherein I dwelt, and when Their anger scorched me and Their eyes burned, then did I praise the gods and offer sacrifice. But when I came again to my green land and found that all was gone, and the old mysterious haunts wherein I prayed as a child were gone, and when the gods tore up the dust and even the spider's web from the last remembered nook, then did I curse the gods, speaking it to Their faces, saying:—

      "Gods of my prayers! Gods of my sacrifice! because Ye have forgotten the sacred places of my childhood, and they have therefore ceased to be, yet may I not forget. Because Ye have done this thing, Ye shall see cold altars and shall lack both my fear and praise. I shall not wince at Your lightnings, nor be awed when Ye go by."

      Time and the Gods

      The post was edited 3 times, last by Vulpes ().

    • I hate that video with a passion too, you should feel chuffed gamtos.

      I do just have a slight disagreement with accepting the HE interpretation. The notion that the whole of Termina is a lotus eater machine for the Skull Kid seems more like one of those ‘shock value over logic’ theories you mentioned, but hey that’s my opinion. My personal opinion.

      Overall you hit the nail on the head. Now for me to hunt down an annoying theory video.
    • Wasn't there a thread ages ago comparing theorising on a forum vs. theorising in a video?

      gamtos wrote:

      The transformation masks all belong to dead characters. The Elegy of Emptiness allows you to create clones of these dead people, and Link gets a clone, ergo Link is also dead.
      Reminds me, years ago, someone pointed out that the creepy smile on the Link statue could be based on smiles on real statues that mean that the person depicted is still alive.

      By the way, the "Gerudo Slave" thumbnail is an episode of Culture Shock, and the "Dissecting Kirby" video isn't that edgy, so those aren't the best examples.
    • I think the issue is that (and I like MatPat) is that you can tell he is a "casual" fan of the Zelda not a Zelda "theorist", you know? I don't if it's because Zelda story telling doesn't line up or has too many holes but the digging and research he does for Zelda pales in comparison to FNAF. I really got into zelda last year but when I do theorize, I try and stay close to canon as possible and not let headcannon get in the way. The Majora's Mask= Stages of Grief video is no different than people associating OoT to the Journey of the Hero theme. We can at least say that the theme is obviously there. However, unfortunately MatPat he is a casual fan not a Zelda theorist.

      I don't know how MatPat was aware of the existence of Hero Shade in TP to connect it back to MM Link being dead but not connected that TP Link is the blood descendant of MM Link. That small bit of information was known of in the game would have ended the theory in it's tracks.


      Then again, I do feel for Zelda theorist like HMK, Dr.Willy, MatPat because at the end of the day they are trying to make good content by having some thoughtful theories (which at times seem like opinions based on little canon). I think they are allowed to have bad theories because it's not like they are claiming to be correct, so I don't hold them to the highest pedestal. We talk here because we can edit and our popularity is not based on just making "interesting" theories. I assume folks here just want to have a place to talk and for the most part, we are all equal in status.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by misisme33: I meant Fnaf not pales in comparison to Zelda ().

    • gamtos wrote:

      Well that definitely made me feel good about spending four hours on this thread.
      Four Hours only ?
      I kept my theories for weeks on Draft 'cause I'm the laziest procrastinator of all times.
      It reminds me I should finish the one I've started this weekend... :cookiemonster:

      That's really well made, I'm impressed.
      You are showing to us how a good Text can worth a good Video.

      Maybe on Youtube, you don't really want to talk about small theories you can just easly put on text.
      And so much more if you want to entertain an audience.
      That's what make films and books different.


      For the counteragument ...
      It reminds me of this video: youtu.be/LxTf5hjvOCU
    • Nitro Indigo wrote:

      Wasn't there a thread ages ago comparing theorising on a forum vs. theorising in a video?

      All I know is I pitched the idea once and it was received well, but I never followed through.

      By the way, the "Gerudo Slave" thumbnail is an episode of Culture Shock, and the "Dissecting Kirby" video isn't that edgy, so those aren't the best examples.

      Was poking fun more at how clickbaity some thumbnails can be.
    • My least favourite of MatPat's Zelda theories was the strongest Link one, where he spends an awful lot of time bashing Spirit Tracks because trains ha-dee-ha-dee-ha-ha-ha, even though it's not 2009 anymore.

      I want to make a parody theory of... something one day as an April Fool's joke, but I can't think of what to base it on. Probably those bogus Pokémon theories that get vomited out a lot (Arcanine was going to be a legendary, the Fire starters are based on the Chinese zodiac, etc.), maybe even presenting them as fact, but since The Dex has done a good job at debunking most of them, I'm not sure what I can add.

      (Also, does anyone else find Lockstin and Gnoggin's styles really obnoxious?)

      A YouTuber called Seamus Gorman, who does non-clickbaity theories about Harry Potter and Pixar, has made a couple of videos making fun of theories that appear on list channels.
    • Majora's Mask wears its heart and its messages on its sleeve, so I don't know why these theories about Link dying keep persisting. Yet I hear it everywhere. One of my 8 year old family members was like "did you hear Link died in Majora's Mask?" and I kind of shrugged and gently told him that he might see things a different way when he gets to play it. I want him to be able to play with an open mind, so he can form his own thoughts.

      Frankly, that whole theory line can't get shot down enough. So I'm glad this thread was made.
    • I remember seeing someone pass off the "Link is dead" theory as canon on Miiverse years ago. In the second video I linked to, Seamus even makes the same point that gamtos did: shocking theories will attract more attention than logical ones. He also brings up another one of those theories that sounds like thematic analysis, but doesn't hold up under scrutiny.
    • gamtos, you expressed the feelings I have for this awful "theory" perfectly!
      Thank you!
      This is the response the video deserves!

      misisme33 wrote:

      Then again, I do feel for Zelda theorist like HMK, Dr.Willy, MatPat because at the end of the day they are trying to make good content by having some thoughtful theories
      From what I can tell, HMK and Dr.Wily have more Zelda lore knowledge than MatPat.
      I enjoy all of them, but feeling more comfortable with the first two regarding Zelda theories. I also think that it's easier for smaller channels to change path (in this case, correct themselves), so there's that.

      There was once, actually 4 or 5 years ago, a video on Youtube around 12 minutes long without voicing (which I find still impressive) that dealt with this matter in exactly the same way as you, picking MatPat's ... "theory" apart point by point, but I can't seem to find it anymore...
      One solution to Epona for example was teleportation by using Majora's Mask's powers.

      I can't believe there are still people out there believing this "theory" and taking it as fact and canon. Like... is it true that this "theory" is kind of popular among casual (Zelda) gamers?!? Oh God, please no! I haven't really done any research on this matter and don't intend to.

      On a side note:

      gamtos wrote:

      To say the whole town is in denial is an extremely gross exaggeration, especially because it's the only town where people actually even bother to talk about how scary the moon is to them.
      One Goron sourrounding Darmani the Goron Elder after defeating Goth talks about the unpleasant moon. Also, Cremia talks very seriously with Link about the whole issue.
      Most of you probably know this already, I just thought to bring this up briefly.

      Edit: Quotation marks of disdain for this... work by MatPat!
      "A puppet that can no longer be used is mere garbage.
      This puppet's role has just ended..."
      - Majora


      My major theories:

      Counting the Population of Termina

      Counting the Population of Hyrule (OoT)

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Romano-British Medli ().

    • Romano-British Medli wrote:

      HMK and Dr.Wily have more Zelda lore knowledge than MatPat.
      And yet...

      Going into

      Dr. Wily - The BIGGEST Secret of the Fierce Deity



      Prepare to be underwhelmed.

      Summary and Watch Guide

      1. 0:18 "It is believed that the spirit inhabiting Fierce Deity Mask is one of a great God but the question is, which God? Who is he? Well the answer has always been there, right in front of you."
        • I'm just gonna tackle this one right here. "It is believed" is a classical I-can't-source-my-wikipedia-edits catch-all phrase that raises questions like "by who?" and doesn't answer them.
          Furthermore, "The answer has always been there, right in front of you" is a line you use for facts, not shaky theories, which irks me.
      2. 0:50 Dr. Wily states that by looking at the transformation masks, we can learn some things about the Fierce Deity.
        1. Link's Transformation Masks give him the shape of the spirit that inhabits it, with a few alterations to make it look more like Link.
          • Personal note, might be a developer oversight but I think Goron Link looks more like a generic Goron than Darmani, and Zora Link looks more like a generic Zora than Mikau.
        2. Using this knowledge, we surmise that Fierce Deity was a tall warrior God that used a double helix sword and shot sword beams.
      3. Dr. Wily pulls up Aonuma's quotes about Fierce Deity.
        1. "the best way to think about it is that the memories of all the people of Termina are inside of the Fierce Deity Mask".
        2. Later at 6:41, Dr. Wily claims Aonuma also stated that the masks are filled with the spirits of the dead.
      4. Dr. Wily explains that Termina is an alternate universe, and brings up "the fact" that the Four Giants are worshiped rather than the Triforce as one of the "altered" parts. He also mentions that the Carnaval of Time is held in reverence of the four.
      5. Dr. Wily further states that as Termina is an alternate universe, there are copies of all Hyruleans in Termina, except for Link, Zelda and Ganondorf. He claims that because there is no Triforce in Termina, there would be no reason for Hylia to be created by the Golden Goddesses and no reason for Demise to surface and lay down his curse. Thus, no Zelda and no Ganondorf.
      6. For Link, Dr. Wily gets to the meat of the theory that Link is the Hyrulean counterpart to the Fierce Deity.
        1. Link's counterpart is different because he's the hero of the Four Giants, not the hero of the Triforce.
        2. Fierce Deity is so powerful because he's the Hero of Termina, and that makes him fit with Aonuma's statement... and hold the memories... of the people... in Termina... somehow.
        3. Since the Oath to Order exists, it must mean that Termina used to have a chosen hero like Link that could summon the Four Giants while they slumbered.
        4. Fierce Deity and Link look alike and there is no other counterpart to Link, ergo, Fierce Deity must be Link's counterpart.
      7. "It could be" that "Majora" "tricked" the "Fierce Deity" into "becoming" a mask.
        1. After all, "he" also "tricked" Link into his Deku form. And he's the Hero of Time!
          • Yeah just gonna tackle this one here too. The assumptions in the idea of an entity called Majora tricking an entity called Fierce Deity into becoming a mask is jampacked with assumptions.
            Furthermore, "Majora" didn't curse Link into becoming a Deku, Skull Kid did using the powers of Majora's Mask. Even weirder is the idea that this very direct attack was labeled a "trick". If I pull out a gun, I'm not "tricking" you into getting shot.
        2. "Majora" also cursed and imprisoned the Four Giants.
      8. Fierce Deity is supposedly so powerful despite being put into a mask by Majora, and a God despite Link not being one, for some reasons given:
        1. the Hero of Hyrule and the Hero of Termina combine forces, thereby greatly amplifying their strength.
        2. "Fierce Deity gains its strength from all the people in Termina and probably the Four Giants, and Link doesn't, only drawing power from the Triforce of Courage".
        3. Wily also gives the option that the Fierce Deity Mask started off as a relic made by the Four Giants to protect Termina, but dismisses this option as having "no evidence". As opposed to the rest of his claims :ironic:
      9. Dr. Wily sees the Fierce Deity Mask's descriptor of "dark powers bad as Majora" as a wrench in his theory, but ultimately decides that Fierce Deity may have gotten corrupted by Majora since, after all, so did Link when he became a Deku Scrub.
        • Again, tackling this one here: Link did not get corrupted into having "Dark Powers of Darkity Darkness". He just became stuck as a Deku Scrub.
      =================================================================================

      WHEW is there a lot to unpack here. Unlike Matpat's theory, this one is more of a house of cards that can't really be split into definitive arguments without massively repeating myself. So I'm going to kinda freeform these sections.

      Getting rid of assumptions and bad conclusions

      There are a truckload of implicit arguments being funneled into this theory video, many of which Dr. Wily presents as established fact without going into it.

      1. Majora is a person.



      This is where theory usually meets the realm of fanfiction. There is a very common assumption that since the titular mask is called Majora's Mask, this has to mean it is inhabited by an evil spirit named "Majora". I get irrationally huffy about this, so bear with me.

      Just to name a few other possibilities off the top of my head:
      • Majora is the name of the ancient tribe that used the mask for Hexing rituals. Basically, it was their mask, hence, Majora's Mask.
      • Or more specifically, Majora could be the name of the inventor of the mask, or the person who used it for the hexing rituals. Bonus points as Majora's Mask is partially named after the designer at Nintendo, Imamura.
      • Majora could be the name of the hexing ritual.
      • The name could also refer to its country of origin, as the HMS never states the mask was found in Termina.
      • Majora could be an ancient word meaning any sort of thing, such as:
        • Misfortune
        • Cursing
        • Power / greatness
      • Even if it is some demon, monster or other sort of creature, it could be the RACE of creatures rather than the name of one specific demon.
      The idea that it's an evil spirit possessing a mask is possible, but I am going to point out that nowhere in the (Japanese version of) the game is the word "Majora" used without being a conjunction to something.
      Furthermore, as the mask does not transform Skull Kid in any way, it's not like the three "inhabited" Transformation Masks.

      2. Fierce Deity is a spirit of a hero God trapped inside a mask.

      Getting to the meat of the theory here.
      Sure, compared to the three other transformation masks, it kind of makes sense there's a dead guy inside of the mask. But then again, is the Fierce Deity Mask really in the same category?



      The Fierce Deity mask is separate from the three transformation masks in the menu, as noted by the bar crossing the three.
      It's right next to the Giant Mask though, which has some interesting features.
      • Just like Fierce Deity Mask it cannot be used outside of a boss room.
      • It transforms Link, but mostly makes him taller and have a lower voice; it does not alter his form as dramatically as the transformation masks.
      • It contains "the hidden power of the Giants" according to the Japanese text, but does not transform Link into a form similar to the Four Giants.
      Ergo, the idea that the Fierce Deity Mask fits the three other Transformation masks is doubtful to me. That puts a wrench in the idea that the Fierce Deity Mask was created under similar circumstances.

      The most daming evidence however comes from the quotes by Aonuma that Dr. Wily repeatedly brought up and repeatedly got amazingly wrong.

      Q: “Why does it hurt so much for Link to wear the transformation masks?"


      Aonuma: "We’re talking about masks that were created to contain the memories of people who have died. Often there are things they really wanted to do before they left this world, so becoming them is actually really painful because it’s like hosting a really powerful spirit that’s coming into you.”
      Q: “Whose soul is inside the Fierce Deity Mask?"

      Aonuma: "The best I can give you is just a suggestion. The best way to think about it is that the memories of all the people of Termina are inside of the Fierce Deity Mask.”
      Aonuma very clearly avoids the idea that the soul of one person is inside the mask.

      Somehow, through extreme wishful reading, Dr. Wily distorts this into "Fierce Deity is the (dead?) Hero of Termina and gets his powers from the people of Termina (and probably the giants)"

      What?

      2.1. Fierce Deity was once a hero deity in Termina, sworn to the Giants and is powered by the people of Termina.

      The one argument that remotely resembles evidence for this largely fanfictionfuel claim is that the Oath to Order exists, so someone must have been around to use it.
      • If so, why would you need a hero for that? It's like if there was only one person in Termina allowed to call 911 during an emergency, and was hailed as a hero for owning a phone and using it appropriately.
        This Fierce Deity would be the equivalent of a kid flexing about how strong he is, and if you mess with him, he's going to... cry to his four older brothers to beat you up. What?
      • Fierce Deity, under the assumption that it's a deceased spirit inside a transformation mask, is literally the only transformation who is unable to even play the Oath to Order. He has no instrument.
      • "100 steps north, 100 steps south, 100 steps east, 100 steps west. If you have need, call us in a loud voice by declaring something such as, 'The mountain blizzard has trapped us.' Or 'The ocean is about to swallow us.' Your cries shall carry to us..." — Four Giants.

        "Overwhelmed with misfortune, the people sang the song of prayer to the giants who lived in each of the four compass directions." — Anju's Grandmother

        The Oath to Order is literally stated to have been used by the people, NOT by a mythical hero.
      • If such a hero existed, why is there no proof of the character's existence anywhere in Termina, not even in Granny's stories? If you contain people's memories, why don't people's memories contain you?


      3. The Triforce is not found in Termina.

      And yet, most theorists know depictions, though rare, can be found throughout Termina.



      Even if these particular ones were removed in the 3DS remake, these new markings were added in Goht Kid's mini dungeon:



      Another questionable argument that wasn't discussed; the Hero's Shield, which is not the Hylian Shield, can be bought in stores and has a Triforce mark. The reason why this is questionable is because Link carries the shield before he ever enters Termina.



      4. Hyrulean counterparts as evidence

      As we discussed in the last theory, just because Termina and Hyrule have counterparts does not mean that literally every Hylian needs a counterpart. Just as there are myriads of Terminan characters we don't see in Hyrule in my first post, here are a few Hylians that don't appear in Termina:



      Furthermore, unless you count Toto as the counterpart to the Zora King and Darmani as the counterpart to Darunia, there are very few distinct physical differences between Hylians and their Terminan counterparts. Certainly not enough that Link's counterpart would have white hair and be inhumanly tall and also not even really human.

      Missing knowledge about the Fierce Deity Mask

      For a video that supposedly wants to discuss Fierce Deity, there are many things about the mask that aren't found anywhere in the video. This irked me immensely because if you want to make a theory about something that isn't 75% fan fiction, don't work with only 25% of the information available to you.

      1. Location, location, location

      Nowhere in the theory is one of the most peculiar facts about the Fierce Deity Mask; the method of obtaining it.
      Link gives away all of his masks in the trippy moon base, plays with four of the moon children, and then in exchange for his last few masks, he gets the Fierce Deity Mask in order to play tag with the last child (the one wearing Majora's Mask), which ends up being a fight against Majora's Mask.

      Now, regardless of what your theories about the children on the moon may be, it's very hard to deny that if you want to discuss the relationship between the Fierce Deity Mask and Majora's Mask, this section of the game should not be missing under any circumstance.

      2. Localization, localization, localization

      It is the bane of any theorist's career: the little things that go missing when you translate a Japanese game to a different language.

      Dr. Wily tripped on the "dark powers" description of the mask and being called "the bad guy", but this is, as most of you know, due to a localization error.

      鬼神の仮面を もらった
      You got the Fierce Deity’s Mask!
      オニが かぶる オニのお面?
      The demon (oni) mask worn by demons (oni)?
      Fun side story, this piece of text is infamous for the "Oni Link" description of Fierce Deity, claimed by some theorists as proof that Fierce Deity is a demon, but again, this is because the context went lost in translation.

      オニごっこ・・・か、いいな
      How about…tag (oni gokko)
      そうだ、それがいい
      Yeah, that’ll work.
      いいか・・・オマエが オニだ
      You are it (the oni).
      "Tag" is called Oni Gokko in Japanese, and means "Pretending to be a demon". The mask, to the child, simply means that Link is "it" in their game of "tag". The Japanese version does not make the FDM out to be evil at all.

      3. Know your etymology

      Many people, faced with the title "Fierce Deity" take it at face value; a deity who is fierce. But the words Fierce Deity, as well as the Japanese term used for the mask, "Kishin", refer to deities specifically from the Buddhist pantheon.

      These are wrathful, terrifying and fierce forms of enlightened Buddhas. They destroy obstacles towards enlightenment and guard confused sentient beings from demons.

      For Majora's Mask, a game about being stuck in a constant cycle, it's not hard to draw comparisons to the wheel of Samsara, or to put it very short, "reincarnating until you stop being an unenlightened asshole". You can read a lot about it here; a very fascinating article that draws a lot more parallels. Unfortunately it does not go into the Fierce Deity all that much.

      To just name some more: in the Japanese Buddhist pantheon, there are five wisdom kings, organized according to the directions of the compass, with Fudō Myō-ō (or Acala) in the center, a Fierce Deity with a sword that is sometimes depicted as having a dragon coiled around it.



      Of note is that the Fierce Deity Mask was given by someone sitting in the shade of a tree - parallel to famous Buddha Siddharta Gautama, who achieved enlightenment under the tree while being assailed by distractions sent by the Demon of Death, Mara.



      A being that sits underneath a tree gives you the ability to become a form named after a creature that destroys obstacles towards enlightenment, and it is used to defeat the final antagonist of the game. But only if you first remove the circling children. Look, am I crazy or is this actually a pretty dang big deal?

      I'm not saying you have to include this in every and all theories about Fierce Deity, but honestly you probably should because if you ignore the name of the mask, there's not much left to theorize about.

      4. In-game facts about Fierce Deity Mask

      4.1 - the Gossip Stone
      "The Fierce Deity's Mask, a mask that contains the merits of all masks, seems to be... somewhere in this world..." — Gossip Stone
      This is a really big deal.

      The Gossip Stone is a direct in-game reference to the nature of the Fierce Deity Mask. And best of all, it combines with Aonuma's statement in a way that isn't complete horseshit!
      • Link is in pain during transformations according to Aonuma because the masks contain painful memories. As the memories of the Transformation Masks include premature death and/or murder, it makes sense that masks containing those memories must be uncomfortable to wear.
        More importantly, however, Aonuma's statement tells us that masks can contain memories, and does not exclude:
      • The distinct new possibility that all masks can contain memories. Virtually all of the 20 masks we need to give out in order to get the Fierce Deity Mask are recorded in the Bomber's Notebook, and are usually proof of having helped someone in need.
        • This might also be an in-universe reason why the Moon Children angrily refuse to accept the Tranformation Masks; the "death memories" might feel repulsive to them while the other masks contain less horrifying memories, like those of love and gratitude.
      • If we combine these ideas, then giving away all of the masks containing the memories of virtually everyone in Termina, and receiving back a mask that is both said to contain "the memories of all the people in Termina" and "the merits of all masks" makes a GIANT AMOUNT OF SENSE. The Fierce Deity Mask is essentially a fusion of all of the masks you've given, along with all of the memories of the people you helped.
      How does this contradict Dr. Wily's theory? It attacks the very foundation of his wobbly house of cards, namely the idea that Fierce Deity existed before the Fierce Deity Mask did.
      Many of the masks that Link receives have not existed very long, and some were created by Link himself. And the memories inside of those masks are definitely fresh.

      4.2 - Fierce Deity's chestplate

      If you're going to make a theory about a character, their appearance would be a good thing to study. Yet, there is no mention on the very prominent symbols on Fierce Deity's chest.



      On one side, a moon symbol. On the other, a golden triangle.
      These could simply reflect how we found the mask on the moon and the triangle could represent Link. Who knows. What again bugs me is how this is a good foundation to theorize around, and again, Dr. Wily ignores this.

      In conclusion

      When we talk about powerful elements in Zelda, we tend to immediately jump towards Hylia, the Tri- or Tetraforce, Demise, the Golden Goddesses, you name it.
      We want stuff to fit inside of the reincarnation cycles we already know, and sometimes, that narrows our scope to an absurd degree and makes us take leaps we shouldn't need to take.

      Take a broader perspective. Do a little more digging. And don't claim with even a remote shred of certainty that you know Fierce Deity's BIGGEST secret and then give me a lukewarm recipe for disappointingly uninspired speculation, you clickbait hack.

      ===

      For further reading, check out one of my old theories on the moon's landscape that I'm more skeptical about nowadays but still rather proud.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by gamtos ().

    • Now that you mention it, they could have used the remake as a chance to correct the tag translation error. If someone could give me more context, I'll add it to the mistranslations thread.

      The part where you compare the Oath to Order to a phone had me in stitches, as did your description of the Wheel of Samsara.

      I always liked the theory that the World of the Ocean King is Termina, even though I was never big on Majora's Mask, but now I'm wondering if that doesn't hold water either.

      Brilliant point about all masks containing memories. Sort of ties into your theory about Majora's Mask being a whale's heart.

      Now I want to do some digging and find out if there's some deeper symbolism in some of the Zelda games I like to think about.
    • gamtos wrote:

      And yet...

      Going into


      [extremely detailed theory/critique by gamtos]
      In my defense: I only placed HMK and Dr.Wily relatively to MatPat - I didn't specify by what amount their knowledge was greater, haha.

      Wow, I really admire the detail you deconstruct these theories with.
      "A puppet that can no longer be used is mere garbage.
      This puppet's role has just ended..."
      - Majora


      My major theories:

      Counting the Population of Termina

      Counting the Population of Hyrule (OoT)
    • Vulpes wrote:

      gamtos wrote:

      Game theory: Is Link Dead in Majora's Mask?
      Link is dead. Link remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become Links simply to appear worthy of it?
      But how did we do this? How could we drink up the sea? Who gave us the sponge to wipe away the entire horizon? What were we doing when we unchained this earth from its sun? Whither is it moving now? Whither are we moving? Away from all suns? Are we not plunging continually? Backward, sideward, forward, in all directions? Is there still any up or down? Are we not straying, as through an infinite nothing? Do we not feel the breath of empty space? Has it not become colder? Is not night continually closing in on us? Do we not need to light lanterns in the morning? Do we hear nothing as yet of the noise of the gravediggers who are burying Link? Do we smell nothing as yet of the courageous decomposition? Heroes, too, decompose. Link is dead. Link remains dead. And we have killed him.”
    • You could have gone so much farther.

      But how did we do this? How could we drink up Lake Hylia? Who gave us the sponge to wipe away the entire horizon? What were we doing when we unchained this earth from its sun? Whither is it moving now? Whither are we moving? Away from all suns? Are we not plunging continually? Backward, sideward, forward, in all directions? Is there still any up or down in Stone Tower Temple? Are we not straying, as through an infinite nothing? Do we not feel the breath of the wild? Has it not become colder? Is not the Night of the Third Day continually closing in on us? Do we not need to light Deku sticks in the morning? Do we hear nothing as yet of the noise of Dampé who is burying Link? Do we smell nothing as yet of the courageous decomposition? Heroes, too, decompose. Link is dead. Link remains dead. And we have killed him.
      When the gods drave me forth to toil and assailed me with thirst and beat me down with hunger, then I prayed to the gods. When the gods smote the cities wherein I dwelt, and when Their anger scorched me and Their eyes burned, then did I praise the gods and offer sacrifice. But when I came again to my green land and found that all was gone, and the old mysterious haunts wherein I prayed as a child were gone, and when the gods tore up the dust and even the spider's web from the last remembered nook, then did I curse the gods, speaking it to Their faces, saying:—

      "Gods of my prayers! Gods of my sacrifice! because Ye have forgotten the sacred places of my childhood, and they have therefore ceased to be, yet may I not forget. Because Ye have done this thing, Ye shall see cold altars and shall lack both my fear and praise. I shall not wince at Your lightnings, nor be awed when Ye go by."

      Time and the Gods
    • I think there's a lot of untapped potential in the video format. In principle, it should be great. Get a decent narrator, and you can present images and video as evidence without interrupting the flow of the theory. Even if it's strictly aesthetic, it can be a really nice touch. Take this recent video by Zeltik:

      youtube.com/watch?v=gjy8p-Rc-6k

      He uses the map to highlight certain areas, the range of Akalla Citadel's cannons, and the movements of hypothetical attackers from the east, and the Hylian army and guardians during the fall of Hyrule. And between those, you get in-game footage of Guardians rampaging through the fields of Hyrule interspersed with Link, dressed as a Hylian Soldier, manning a post at the Citadel in atmospheric rain. There was nothing in that video that I didn't already know, and I still found it compelling to watch.

      It's a shame that so many of them turn out so... underdeveloped. It seems like the drive to do something new and dramatic compels people to make leaps of logic to reach conclusions that no one else has, and while there's almost always some merit to the ideas presented, they never get developed because there's no discussion to be had. Thus, Youtube theories end up distributing bad information to large groups of people, often those least prepared to know better. Meanwhile, there are some excellent theories that have only ever appeared in written form, buried under 27 pages of "Small BotW Theories" or in obscure blogs, when a video adaptation could convey them to a much larger audience. Tragic, truly tragic.

      Anyway, I have a pretty high tolerance for Youtube theories, even with all their flaws, but there was one that bothered be a lot: Game Theory's hookshot theory. Matpat goes over all the reasons that using the hookshot (technically the longshot) would killor at least seriously maim a normal human, yet completely glosses over the fact that Link, a Hylian, can use it anyway, and repeatedly. Casually, even. There's an obvious conclusion that Hylians have superhuman durability, and likely strength, too. He could have even use an out-of-context clip of Link lifting a giant stone pillar and tossing it aside. But no, the conclusion we get basically amounts to "physics in fantasy games aren't the same as reality." And after he made such a big deal about forcing real-world explanations into the Zelda universe to explain why potions work. (Or maybe before. It's been a while.)
      Goddess of the Sands

      Map of Thyphlo Ruins

      Forest Architects

      If you have Amiibo Tap: Nintendo's Greatest Bits on Wii U, you can reset which games your amiibo unlock by deleting the game and then redownloading it.