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    gamtos & friends vs. YouTube - requests welcome!
    • Evran_Speer wrote:

      gamtos wrote:

      I think at this point I can rename the thread "gamtos vs. Youtube".
      Hey, you forget my brutal takedown of the hookshot theory.
      Anyway, here's a request. I'd like to see your take on this one. I have mixed feelings about it.
      I'm gonna tackle it real quick because the theory is very upfront about its flaws.

      Simply put, the theory hinges on the idea that Kass' teacher HAS to be seen in the game AND has to be identified. Which is entirely arbitrary and only based on writer meta.
      Due to this, tons of little innocent statements get mangled into making Robbie sound like a jealous, bitter, lying man filled with regrets, something that does not fit him at all.
      The video prefers calling Kass a liar over the simple explanation we don't meet or see Kass' teacher in-game. Which is dumb.

      The theory clearly shows a clip of two male Sheikah present during Link's sacrifice, and we know that if Robbie is one of them, the other likely died, as there are no other male elderly Sheikah in BotW that could recognize Link.

      Going by the video's standards, the obvious candidate for Kass' teacher would be the unnamed male Sheikah that, along with Robbie, brought Link to the Shrine of Resurrection.
    • Okay, so I finally have time to address this thread as a whole! I'm sorry I was rather inactive here. I feel bad for gamtos. Nevertheless, I found something. Minor nitpicking; can be considered that way. However, I was wrapping my head around for weeks on how to write something here in this thread while not having a whole Youtube video to hate and debunk. Rather, I have a specific scene I'd like to address:

      Its in the video "Zelda Month Finale!: Link's Bloodline (ft HMK and VortexxyGaming)" by Commonwealth Realm, HMK and VortexxyGaming.

      I don't think the video's bad per se, it has some interesting theorizing titbits, and I even used it in one of my theories as a basis, however there's one section that's really disappointing me:
      It's the part where HMK supposedly debunks MatPat's claim that Link is dead. This part is so disappointing! While I agree with the conclusion, the premises HMK uses are mostly shaky. (Wow, I get to criticize the critique of a GT video, which is already being hated and destroyed by this thread's first post! Yaaaayyyy, this will be fun!) I could be arguing against straw men here, but eh, I'll try my best anyways.

      Broad overview: The video is largely a narration of the events happening in MM and TP as well as theorizing about what happened between those two games. Various theorists (mentioned in the video's title) and voice-actors alternate in narrating the video. Between these parts, there's some self-made story being told that is not interesting to us theorists.
      HMK early in his segments (minute 3:14 – 3:27) builds up tension by mentioning what a huuuge debunk to the “Link is dead” theory he will be going over later in the video:

      HMK wrote:

      What happened next remains to this day the most disputed moment In Zelda history: Did the Hero of Time die at this moment? The short answer is: No, since there are multiple traces pointing at Link's return to his beloved Hyrule. But more on them later.
      After the events of MM have been told, HMK returns to this question (minutes 7:21 – 8:10).
      The structure of this scene is the following:

      At first, HMK directly refutes MatPat's claim and directly follows with his first (and in my opinion most convincing) argument that children dieing in the Lost Woods become Skull Kids, not Stalfos.
      He then proceeds to list “tangible evidence” which “prove” that the Hero of Time was alive in Termina (I don't know why the Skull Kid/Stalfos argument, the strongest one, is not part of this list, but whatevs) :
      1. Link does not turn into a mask while learning and playing the Song of Healing.
      2. Sharp describes Link as “full of life” and asks him if he “wish[es] to join the dead”.
      3. The now infamous difference in the four statues' eyes (Elegy of Emptiness).
      He then reiterates the conclusion he was trying to prove with his 3 points, that Link is alive at the end of MM.

      I am going off from this position: The way you win a logical (not rhetorical!) argumentation is by leading your opponent into contradiction. This means that your opponent either has to refine his premises, or give some of them up completely.
      The way I understand MatPat is the following: After Link's death due to his fall (I know it hurts, dear theorists, please stay with me!), some whatever deistic entity creates a scenario we play as the game known as “Majora's Mask”. So, Links goes into purgatory, where he has to live in this MM-Termina-dreamworld-”whatever, I don't want to lose myself in MatPat hypothetical definitions”-thingy.

      Let's now break HMK's list apart one by one, shall we:
      1. This is not a contradiction to MatPat's premises. I don't see why this couldn't be the case in the purgatory. The entity has full control over the purgatory, so it's easy to create a set of rules for this world, where the protagonist can't simply end this existence by playing a song, but has to accept his death on a psychological route with the Kübler-Ross model of accepting death.
      2. This, again HMK, is no contradiction to MatPat! I get where HMK is coming from, and in a purgatory scenario, this wording could be seen as off and weird, but I for example can interpret Sharp's wording as ironic, mocking the idea that the Hero of Time is clinging to life while being in purgatory.
      3. Oh god, people will going to hate me for this … This again is no “prove” that the Hero is alive! I might do a whole theory on this why I think the statue's eyes argument is not as sound as it seems on first glance. Let's just consider this: The entity has made the following rule: “Only Link's hylian statue has pupils in his eyes.” This means that any statue created by the Elegy of Emptiness under any other circumstance has blank eyes. Doesn't matter whether it was a spirit or a living being that created the statue. Blank eyes! Almost always! Therefore, Link's hylian statue having pupils doesn't mean he is alive!
      I'm sorry gamtos :(

      So HMK boldly claims he will indisputably refute MatPat's theory – and then spectacularly fails to do so. The only valid argument is glanced over (also I don't know why he put it at the beginning of his argumentation – shouldn't the strongest argument usually be at the end? Ah, rhetoric! Also: He doesn't even list Hyrule Historia! Why?!?), and other potential arguments (Deku Flower!!!) are being ignored.
      “But Medli,” I hear some of you say “this is just a minor detail in a lengthy video! Why do you care so much about that? There are even arguments out there made by other theorists supporting HMK's view!”. Because I think this is an example of how NOT to do a theory video!
      HMK is just throwing shaky evidence (at best) at MatPat, ignoring much stronger arguments. You don't need a ton of evidence to disprove some positions. Theorizing (in my opinion) should not be about stockpiling shaky evidence to get your conclusion across to an unknowing audience! That's just a weak and easy way out! This is, in my opinion, just confusing the audience and they don't (and can't) pay attention to the more important parts. You make 1 or 2 strong arguments that lead the other person straight into contradiction, and boom, you're done! Don't need a list of 4 different points to refute something (except if those 4 points are all part of a cohesive line of argument, but that clearly isn't the case here).
      The Hero's Shade in conjunction with Hyrule Historia is a contradiction!
      The Deku Flower mysteriously not working as literally any other deku flower in the game is dangerously close to contradiction!
      Why HMK doesn't address these points is beyond me.

      So, my point is made. This text is coming across more negative than I'm feeling about this HMK part. I just wanted to take it down detail by detail.
      I personally think that, in order to reach truth, being objective (as far as one can be) is necessary. So we should also critique the opinions we agree with and follow, as to not make mistakes we accuse others of (in this case, sloppy argumentation).
      "A puppet that can no longer be used is mere garbage.
      This puppet's role has just ended..."
      - Majora

      Avatar by TruEdge67

      My major theories:

      Counting the Population of Termina

      Counting the Population of Hyrule (OoT)

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Romano-British Medli ().

    • I mean HMK isn't even a good Zelda theorist, he makes stuff up without backing it up. Just look at his "Termina IS Hyrule" video.

      At least the 25 minute "Link is NOT dead" video completely debunks MatPat's video without hating, just giving constructive criticism which is how it should be. I'm just glad there are some good Zelda theorists out there...HMK & Gameover Jesse aren't among them.
    • I wasn't entirely sure if I should post this here, as it regards a subject without an answer.
      But I felt it would be worth highlighting, in that it deals with how flawed a rebuttal video can be.

      The theory being addressed is MatPats Downfall Timeline placement theory, the rebuttal is presented by Zeltik, Commonwealth Realm and HMK.


      Summary

      Display Spoiler
      0:00 A few minutes of introduction of Commonwealth Realm, Zeltik and HMK and explanation of Matpats theory.
      They acknowledge that they can’t find a perfect place, but reflect on the most plausible place.
      They explain that they will discuss the evidence presented as well as pieces they feel were overlooked.

      2:40 The nature of Matpats video is mentioned, stating that it is cherrypicking and ignoring potent evidence. Not dismissing evidence for other lines is mentioned as well.

      3:45 The extensive gap of time puts importance on remaining monuments and lore passed down. The Temple of Time and Lonlon Ranch remaining cause dismissal of the AT.

      5:00 Evidence Matpat acknowledged from the CT is discussed.
      The Goron Statues are brought up for CT evidence.
      Lack of Gorons in Hyrule is also discussed.
      Lack of other races are discussed too.

      7:40 the presence of Lynels used to support DT is brought up. Lack of presence of some enemies in the DT is used to counter this.
      Matpats discussion of Fokka being related to Rito is brought up.
      Zeltik says the Rito are probably the same as the WW type despite the differences.

      9:00 Ganon is discussed. Similarity to the DT form is noted by Matpat.
      HMK notes that Ganon seems to be building a form similar to the TP form, which the most relative(?) form he knows. The title Dark Beast Ganon unique to TP is brought up.

      10:30 Matpats Cap of the Wild colour argument is discussed.
      Comm claims Matpat is colourblind.
      HMK notes that Matpat should have acknowledged DLC items.

      12:00 The ceremony is discussed, HMK thinks the first verse takes priority.
      The Master sword design is said to be closest to the TP form.
      The status of the Triforce is brought up, acknowledging it belongs to the Royal Family in the DT but theorise the same could be said for the CT.



      Response

      Display Spoiler
      I think we can all agree that Matpat cherrypicked his information. It seems to me that he used poor evidence and ignored the good stuff in order to just generate further arguments and attention.
      I also think we can agree how pretentious this video title sounds.
      While I think it’s important to consider remaining buildings the fact that they’re choosing particularly bad examples.
      Lonlon Ranch would have broken down no matter which timeline it’s in over such a huge timespan. And the Temple of Time was broken down and overgrown by woodland in the CT and DT, making the one we see in the Plateau unlikely to be the original.

      The Goron statues aren’t flawless evidence, as there is no statue of Darunia there, it’s Darmani. I don’t know if they made this oversight by accident or purposefully as it shoots their argument in the foot. It’s unlikely the Goron Hero of Termina would have a statue made of him in Hyrule. It’s entirely possible that his Hyrule counterpart was a hero as well, but it means the statue isn’t of the MM version.
      So by the same token why would we think the Gor Coron statue is of the TP version? Neither have any backstory addressed in game for why they’re up there, and identical counterparts are common in the Zelda series. Had there more detail on the statues subjects they might have a point, but without that they are simply unknowns.
      The idea of races migrating back to Hyrule is never entertained, and they fail to mention that the more beastly Zora did in fact have a society in ALBW. In fact considering the fangs and claws of the BotW Zora, they seem more like a hybrid of the two types we know.
      When they move on to the counterargument about Lynels I agree they have a point. It’s perfectly reasonable for an enemy to crop up even if it hadn’t before. It’s a pity that they’re utter hypocrites for claiming so, because by the same logic its fine for races to reappear even if they’ve been missing from prior entries.
      Furthermore they utterly fail to even present valid examples of unseen enemies, because while Chuchus or Lizalfos haven’t appeared in the DT, they precede the whole timeline by existing pre split, unlike Lynels which only appear post split.

      While Matpat’s explanation of the Rito can be met with scrutiny, Zeltik doesn’t provide anything in the way of counter evidence to the idea that the Fokka could develop as a society and furthermore fails to provide a proper explanation of why they might appear in the CT, leaving the AT as the only possibility through this stance.

      Regarding Ganon, HMK is right when he compares it to the TP form, but he forgets that TP wasn’t his most recent appearance in the CT. His blue pig form in FSA was. In that regard we’re at the same problem whether it’s the DT or CT line: why create a humanoid form when the pig form was the stronger and more recent?
      DT Ganon may not have returned to his human form in life, but that doesn’t mean he couldn’t reconstruct his human form if he cared to. For that matter, he talks about the features of the skull as though it’s Ganondorfs original, but that’s impossible as this skull is enormous, roughly the size of Link himself.
      Furthermore the title of Dark Beast is not exclusive to the CT, OoT Ganon is referred to as Dark Beast in Hyrule Historia and the title reappears in Wind Waker, as the Japanese name of Forsaken Fortress.

      We come next to the hat. I think we can all agree it was a terrible lynchpin for the DT argument.
      Bringing up the hard to hear second half of the ceremony is the only worthy thing I think Matpat brought up in his theory.
      I can only personally say that HMK dismissing the second half out of hand is bias, pure and simple, without any attempt to explain why such things would be included in the ceremony to begin with.
      Discussion of the MS design is a moot point considering that the design is identical to he ALBW form.
      I agree that over such along period of time reunification of the Triforce is not out of the question in the CT.

      But in spite of the three theorists claiming to give a proper scope to all evidence they don’t acknowledge the strongest evidence for the DT Placement. Which Matpat also didn't address which is why he's a hack. The Zora Tablet account of Sage Ruto and the Gerudo knowledge of Sage Nabooru. Presumably because the CT has no satisfactory explanation for why it would be remembered there.
      Furthermore they do not properly acknowledge evidence that seems to lean towards the AT, such as Medoh or the rock salt relying more on the exceptional circumstances without providing reasonable explanations for these pieces that act as indicators to that branch.


      Anyway that's my own rant over, feels good lads.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Fal Cie ().

    • @Romano-British Medli How is the Deku flower not working a contradiction?

      @Fal Cie You forgot to specify that they were debunking MatPat's Breath of the Wild theory.

      I'm still entertaining the idea of making a parody edgy theory, and I've got to wonder: is mixing canons a thing that amateur theorists of anything actually do? I feel like including that, but I don't want to parody something that doesn't exist.
      Want to debunk bad non-Zelda theories?

      gamtos wrote:

      The Sheikah are mysterious magic wielders, and this basically makes them a fan-favorite band-aid over any unexplained part of the lore. It's the Zelda equivalent of saying "a wizard did it", but we're always claiming it to be the same wizard.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Nitro Indigo ().

    • Let's now break HMK's list apart one by one, shall we:
      1. This is not a contradiction to MatPat's premises. I don't see why this couldn't be the case in the purgatory. The entity has full control over the purgatory, so it's easy to create a set of rules for this world, where the protagonist can't simply end this existence by playing a song, but has to accept his death on a psychological route with the Kübler-Ross model of accepting death.

      I'm gonna point out two things here:
      - The idea of a separate entity creating a world with rules for Link to work out his stuff is YOUR interpretation, not Matpat's.
      - Being able to invent a workaround about why Link can't be healed easily still weakens the argument significantly. You add the necessary assumption that the Song of Healing does not work on Link, and an entity that has to work out these rules. Occam's Razor works on the answer with the LEAST assumptions.

      I can invent workarounds for "real contradictory evidence" too.
      - Either Link had kids before he set out and he just started young.
      - Kids aren't born through sex in the Zelda world.
      - Link's Ghost pulled a Patrick Swayze.

      And:
      - Link didn't actually fall on a Deku Flower. It's just there in his purgatory world.
      - Game logic does not apply to cutscenes.
      - Link died before the intro of MM.

      None of these workarounds are good. But they're easily thought up.

      2. This, again HMK, is no contradiction to MatPat! I get where HMK is coming from, and in a purgatory scenario, this wording could be seen as off and weird, but I for example can interpret Sharp's wording as ironic, mocking the idea that the Hero of Time is clinging to life while being in purgatory.

      Again, this is the same issue I have with the Robbie-Kass theory; you're saying we can't take a very clear quote from the game at face value and have to assume a character is lying for no particular reason just to support a theory.

      3. Oh god, people will going to hate me for this … This again is no “prove” that the Hero is alive! I might do a whole theory on this why I think the statue's eyes argument is not as sound as it seems on first glance. Let's just consider this: The entity has made the following rule: “Only Link's hylian statue has pupils in his eyes.” This means that any statue created by the Elegy of Emptiness under any other circumstancehas blank eyes. Doesn't matter whether it was a spirit or a living being that created the statue. Blank eyes! Almost always! Therefore, Link's hylian statue having pupils doesn't mean he is alive!
      I'm sorry gamtos :(

      If you want to present this as a counterargument, you need to support it. You say the unidentified and assumed entity made a rule that only Link's statue gets pupils.
      Why? That seems like an entirely petty and random thing to make rules about.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by gamtos ().

    • @Nitro Indigo: I admit, it isn't really a contradiction. I thought about it today (and yesterday) and maybe I was focussing in my text to much on "creating a contradiction". Often, we can't lead the opposing side to this (a contradiction), as empirical evidence is scarce in these games and both sides can (as gamtos has pointed out) make assumptions to back up their position.
      I was more in a position of "It is more likely that the Deku Flower is working than the DF not working." Because then MatPat has to explain why the DF wasn't working which is hell of a lot more problematic (in my eyes) than the assumption Link isn't dieing. But strictly speaking not a contradiction, rather a probability argument. I wasn't precise enough with my wording.

      @gamtos:

      gamtos wrote:

      - The idea of a separate entity creating a world with rules for Link to work out his stuff is YOUR interpretation, not Matpat's.
      Okay, I think I got what you meant - sort of...?
      I have watched MatPat's video again and he says from minute 6:05 to 6:17:

      MatPat wrote:

      I propose to you that throughout Majora's Mask, Link is actually in purgatory, the waitingroom of the afterlife, and that the game represents his journey to accept his death and move on.
      So, in MatPat's interpretation the game is a representation, not something Link lived through?
      However, later in the video from minute 8:03 to 8:10 he says:

      MatPat wrote:

      Link's personal purgatory, his journey to accept his death, is populated with people he's encountered before.
      So he still has (quasi-physically) met the people there?!? I'm confused now!
      I simply tried to present MatPat's position in the broadest way possible. I mean: What's the cause of the purgatory? It had to come from somewhere, right? And "deistic entity" was the broadest term I got yesterday. Also, "setting the rules" I used as an analogy to "creating a world".
      I still might be using a strawman here - funnily enough however not against my opponent.

      gamtos wrote:

      - Being able to invent a workaround about why Link can't be healed easily still weakens the argument significantly. You add the necessary assumption that the Song of Healing does not work on Link, and an entity that has to work out these rules. Occam's Razor works on the answer with the LEAST assumptions.
      Here you're definitively right! Somehow, Occam's Razor slipped my mind while writing my text. Should have used in on myself.

      gamtos wrote:

      you're saying we can't take a very clear quote from the game at face value and have to assume a character is lying for no particular reason just to support a theory.
      I feel like you're misunderstanding me here: I simply did want to say that the Sharp argument in itself as a standalone in my opinion wasn't strong enough to "prove" that Link is alive. I mean, Sharp isn't all-knowing, so he could be wrong about some things...
      (If we had nothing but the Sharp quote to go on from in MM [and without HH, of course], IMO it would severely weaken the "Link is alive" position up to a point that the "Link is dead" position could be reasonably defended. That's all I want to say.)

      gamtos wrote:

      If you want to present this as a counterargument, you need to support it. You say the unidentified and assumed entity made a rule that only Link's statue gets pupils.
      Why? That seems like an entirely petty and random thing to make rules about.
      Okay, I am just going to outline my whole thoughts about the statue-eyes-consensus among theorists here:
      My motivation to make rules about this, indeed petty and random, thing is to present an alternative to the consensus "Every statue with vacant eyes has its origin in a dead person/spirit and every [sic!] statue with pupils has its origin in a person being alive". Regarding statues with pupils, we have a case study with a number of n=1, so why exactly are we here allowed to throw all laws of statistics and probability away to just (whoops!) conveniently "prove" that Link is alive?
      I'm absolutely sold for the first half of the quote, having 3 statues all displaying the same feature allows reasonable assumptions and a theory of generalization. However, Link's statue: One difference is him being alive, true, but I can name you other differences that would account for his statue having pupils as well (for example, the user wearing a green hat or the user being hylian).
      I'm just asking a question here: Why do you all assume Link's statue having pupils means he is alive?
      Look, I don't want to dismiss this possibility, I'm just being sceptic here. I admit this is a very convenient possibility, and I understand why you all do it.
      (Again, same argument as the Sharp quote: If we in MM only had the statues' eyes as evidence, the "Link is dead" position would be a lot stronger IMO.)
      "A puppet that can no longer be used is mere garbage.
      This puppet's role has just ended..."
      - Majora

      Avatar by TruEdge67

      My major theories:

      Counting the Population of Termina

      Counting the Population of Hyrule (OoT)

      The post was edited 4 times, last by Romano-British Medli ().

    • Romano-British Medli wrote:

      So he still has (quasi-physically) met the people there?!? I'm confused now!I simply tried to present MatPat's position in the broadest way possible. I mean: What's the cause of the purgatory? It had to come from somewhere, right? And "deistic entity" was the broadest term I got yesterday. Also, "setting the rules" I used as an analogy to "creating a world".
      I still might be using a strawman here - funnily enough however not against my opponent.
      MatPat is referring to the characters he met during his Ocarina of Time adventure. He's using this as evidence Link is in purgatory when it's not the case. From a gameplay perspective, Nintendo only had 1 year to make Majora's Mask, so of course using the same character models would have helped to save time. From a lore perspective, it's quoted in Hyrule Historia that they are parallel counterparts to Hyrule since Termina is a parallel world to Hyrule. This isn't that uncommon in the Zelda universe. Take for example, Lorule. That is also a parallel world with similar-looking characters...and we know Lorule certainly isn't purgatory. If Termina is purgatory and has Link's memories within it, then why hasn't Link, for most of his life where grew up in Kokiri Forest, aren't the Great Deku Tree and the Kokiri there as part of Link's memories?

      Also, the concept of purgatory is supposed to be where souls go to be purified before moving onto the afterlife. If this is true, then why is Link as the Hero's Shade still lingering in regrets if purgatory is supposed to be a process to help his soul?

      Romano-British Medli wrote:

      I feel like you're misunderstanding me here: I simply did want to say that the Sharp argument in itself as a standalone in my opinion wasn't strong enough to "prove" that Link is alive. I mean, Sharp isn't all-knowing, so he could be wrong about some things...
      (If we had nothing but the Sharp quote to go on from in MM [and without HH, of course], IMO it would severely weaken the "Link is alive" position up to a point that the "Link is dead" position could be reasonably defended. That's all I want to say.)
      There is a lot more evidence than just Sharp's quote, even in other games. For example, in Twilight Princess, there is a song from Majora's Mask which the Hero of Twilight Link learns from the Wolf Howling Stones. As you probably already know, it's the Song of Healing which the Hero of Time Link learned from Termina. There are also other songs that we have not heard in both Ocarina of Time or Majora's mask. This means that the Hero of Time Link must have learned these songs after his adventure in Termina, otherwise he wouldn't be able to howl them to TP Link as a wolf.

      There are also the bloodline quotes from the Hero's Shade in the game, where HH takes it further and says that TP Link has "the blood of the Hero of Time" flowing through his veins. Now, some people may think that Link had an offspring before his Termina adventure...which is odd. But there is in-game evidence to even negate this. In Ocarina of Time, there is a quote from Talon where he asks Link if he would like to marry Malon. If Link replies "Yes" then he laughs and says "Haw haw! I was just kidding! Just kidding! I think you're a little young for that, aren't you?" ...Now if Link is too young to marry, then he is definitely too young to have children.


      Romano-British Medli wrote:

      Okay, I am just going to outline my whole thoughts about the statue-eyes-consensus among theorists here:
      My motivation to make rules about this, indeed petty and random, thing is to present an alternative to the consensus "Every statue with vacant eyes has its origin in a dead person/spirit and every [sic!] statue with pupils has its origin in a person being alive". Regarding statues with pupils, we have a case study with a number of n=1, so why exactly are we here allowed to throw all laws of statistics and probability away to just (whoops!) conveniently "prove" that Link is alive?
      I'm absolutely sold for the first half of the quote, having 3 statues all displaying the same feature allows reasonable assumptions and a theory of generalization. However, Link's statue: One difference is him being alive, true, but I can name you other differences that would account for his statue having pupils as well (for example, the user wearing a green hat or the user being hylian).
      I'm just asking a question here: Why do you all assume Link's statue having pupils means he is alive?
      Look, I don't want to dismiss this possibility, I'm just being sceptic here. I admit this is a very convenient possibility, and I understand why you all do it.
      (Again, same argument as the Sharp quote: If we in MM only had the statues' eyes as evidence, the "Link is dead" position would be a lot stronger IMO.)
      The King of Ikana states that the statues "are a shell of a person's current image", with Link's current image being alive, while the other three statues are dead. This thing with the eyes isn't actually limited to just Majora's Mask, as there is actually a very similar situation in Wind Waker. The boat, the King of Red Lions, at the very end of the game in the final cut scene when Link sails off no longer has pupils. The boat is completely lifeless. This might not so much be a good comparison, but again, it's not just limited to MM.

      Also, just in case you didn't see my earlier message, I'd recommend watching the Link is not dead video as it explains in detail of why there is a much higher probability that Link is alive during his adventure in Termina.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by zhe12 ().

    • I mean: What's the cause of the purgatory? It had to come from somewhere, right?
      "It exists, ergo God" seems a bit theist.
      Maybe Link just created his own purgatory as a lost spirit. Matpat certainly doesn't claim the existence of an external party for this.

      Regarding statues with pupils, we have a case study with a number of n=1,
      Not quite. It is an extremely widely used media trope in anime that no pupils = dead or at least no longer fully conscious.
      When judging the intention of a design, a culture's design principles are also important.
      Hell, the Link is Dead thumbnail specifically has entirely white eyes because it's instantly recognisable as a symbol of death.

      In general, the undead tend to have pure white eyes.


      Anyone instantly knows the girl in the middle does not get pupils because she's the only girl or the only one wearing white.


    • This video seems to be a mish-mash of various common fan theories: the Tetraforce, the Interlopers, the Goddess of Time, etc. The first part about the significance of the number four and the colour purple kind of blew my mind at first, but then I realised it's probably one of those things that doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

      There's already a lengthy counter-argument in the comments that I've only glanced at, but there's one part of the video that caught my attention: Gnoggin claims that Hylia is the Goddess of Time because she created the Ocarina of Time. Where does it say that?

      There's a pinned comment with corrections in it, by the way. Also, I had only watched up to almost twelve minutes when I typed this.

      EDIT: I watched a bit more, and he says that Hylia is the only Hyrulean goddess still worshipped in Termina. His evidence for this is that Zelda, who lives in Hyrule, mentioned the Goddess of Time.

      EDIT2: "This line may differ in other languages." So he's not even going to check what the quotes he cites say in Japanese?
      Want to debunk bad non-Zelda theories?

      gamtos wrote:

      The Sheikah are mysterious magic wielders, and this basically makes them a fan-favorite band-aid over any unexplained part of the lore. It's the Zelda equivalent of saying "a wizard did it", but we're always claiming it to be the same wizard.

      The post was edited 6 times, last by Nitro Indigo ().

    • I've noticed that no-one really complains about Zelda translations; even theorists see mistranslations as a minor inconvenience. It seems like each game has an average translation for its time; for example, the 90s games have stilted wording, censorship, and a few instances of the translators missing the point because Google didn't exist yet (eg: the Moon Children playing tag), but overall, they're still legible and the original meaning of the big picture isn't lost.

      To go off on a tangent, I didn't realise how well-written Spirit Tracks was until I replayed it alongside Explorers of Time. Even THAT translation has its oddities, though; the Spirit Tracks are considered more important in the English translation just to justify the game's title, for example.

      EDIT: After thinking about Gnoggin's "Hylia created the Ocarina of Time" statement, I realised that it's probably a misinterpretation of Hyrule Historia speculating that the ocarina is made of Timeshift Stones.

      The whole video goes around in circles and I honestly stopped paying attention. As I was typing this, I realised something that makes no sense:
      • The main point of his theory is that Termina is a future Lorule which is a future Hyrule, but also that Lorule is on another timeline.
      • The reason why the people of Lorule have purple hair and red eyes is because that's what the Dark World does to people. (Since when?)
      • The Sheikah are from Lorule because they have red eyes.
      Like, where did he draw that conclusion from...?
      Want to debunk bad non-Zelda theories?

      gamtos wrote:

      The Sheikah are mysterious magic wielders, and this basically makes them a fan-favorite band-aid over any unexplained part of the lore. It's the Zelda equivalent of saying "a wizard did it", but we're always claiming it to be the same wizard.

      The post was edited 5 times, last by Nitro Indigo ().

    • As a general rule anything that claims to be the "deepest" theory, or the "biggest" theory, or "theory of everything" turns out to be mostly baseless speculation.

      Honestly, though, I don't often seek out alternate translations or consult people who speak Japanese when making my theories, either.
      Goddess of the Sands

      Map of Thyphlo Ruins

      Forest Architects

      If you have Amiibo Tap: Nintendo's Greatest Bits on Wii U, you can reset which games your amiibo unlock by deleting the game and then redownloading it.
    • You inspired me to search "ultimate pokemon theory", and the first result was Gnoggin's theory that Sun and Moon would be the end of the franchise. Spoiler alert: they weren't. There's also a couple of videos from list channels on the first page.

      The Cult of Masks theory is also an example of what gamtos was talking about at the end of his Dr. Wily post: that theorists all too often try to make everything fit into pre-established patterns.
      Want to debunk bad non-Zelda theories?

      gamtos wrote:

      The Sheikah are mysterious magic wielders, and this basically makes them a fan-favorite band-aid over any unexplained part of the lore. It's the Zelda equivalent of saying "a wizard did it", but we're always claiming it to be the same wizard.
    • It's amazing how Lockstin & Gnoggin pretty much grabbed every single theory I dislike and combined them into something for me to deconstruct.

      ========

      PART 1. The Missing Link

      • "Termina is an alternate version of Hyrule, except all references to the Goddesses or Hylia are gone"


      Yeah you can look at my previous post for this; the Triforce is still around here and there if you know where to look.

      • "Instead, technology developed"
      Anyone who played Skyward Sword or BotW knows that calling Termina more technologically advanced is just a question of what era of Hyrule you're comparing it with.

      • "The slight differences can even be seen in the emblem of both lands. Hyrule is represented by a Loftwing, Termina by an owl."
      This is... jesus this is garbage. This is rage mode.
      First of all, the "emblem of the land", according to Lockstin and Gnoggin, means whatever Link has on his shield. Despite the emblem on Link's Shield in Majora's Mask being seen nowhere else in Termina.

      Now, we're ignoring the fact that Link already had this shield before he even ventured into Termina, making its connections to Termina pointless.



      But that's not all.



      First of all, you can't claim Termina does not acknowledge the Goddesses and then show what you claim is their national emblem, resting right on top of the fucking Triforce. That is some next level "casually not gonna mention this thing that ruins my theory" bullshit.

      Second of all, I know the loftwing is barely recognizable on the Hylian Shield but that does not mean you can just claim this red blob on the Hero Shield is an owl.


      Bada bing bada boom, now it's a skull with wings.

      • "But perhaps this world reminds you of a different world. Lorule, the corrupted version of Hyrule, where everything is the same... but reversed..."
      No, it really doesn't. Lorule's inhabitants are paletteswapped doppelgangers living in what eerily looks like the Dark World from A Link to the Past, and generally have a very different demeanor compared to their Hyrule counterparts. Termina is nothing like Hyrule in terms of geography and the inhabitants are identical doppelgangers with very similar personalities.
      If I had to look for an explanation for Lorule, I would do so with the Dark World in mind; not Termina.

      ================

      THE POWER OF 4

      • "Let me ask you one question... have you heard of... the Tetraforce?"
      Oh for fu--

      • "The Tetraforce is a very old theory, that was denied by Nintendo"
      Whew, okay, false alarm, they know what's up. I'm sure they'll drop this theory now as they know it's been definitely shut down.

      Nah.
      • "In the Zelda Universe, everything is seen to go by three. Except it doesn't, the number 4 is far more representative!"
      Unless things go by six, or seven, also common numbers.
      • "Four elements, as seen in the Minish Cap and many other Zelda's"
      By "many others" we mean two others, the rest of the Four Swords trilogy.

      • "There are four Links in Four Swords, also red, blue, green and wow, purple again.
      Wow, it's almost as if the elements and the four links are all featured in the same games.
      • "There are four Light Spirits in Twilight Princess"
      Three of them that were actually asked to seal the interlopers, and the fourth one being the guardian spirit of the Ordon region, which according to the game, isn't even a part of Hyrule.
      • "This goes on with the other races, Gorons, Zora, Deku, and humanoids, be they Hylians, Gerudo or Sheikah"
      I just...
      This is extremely blatant cherrypicking. To just go over the actual races seen in Hyrule:
      Deku, demons, dragons, fairies, gerudo, gorons, humans, hylians, kikwis, kokiris and koroks, minish, mogmas, oocca, parella, zora and rito, sheikah, ancient robots, fishmen, skull kids, yetis and zuna.

      Even if you want to combine all of the humanoids into one race, which is stupid as most races have various shades of anthropomorphism, you are not going to get the number 4.

      Even if you want to go by OoT alone, going by the pictures that Lockstin & Gnoggin chose, the Dekus are not a race proper at all compared to the rest. Hell, if you take the six sages with medaillions from OoT, very clear race representatives, and put every "humanoid" in one category, you get Gorons, Zoras and Humanoids. 3.

      • "There aren't even three Goddesses. There actually is a fourth one. You know, the Goddess Hylia."
      Ah yes, the one who is clearly a servant to the three and was asked to take care of the Triforce the three made. And who isn't associated with the color purple all that much.

      Of course, if we're going by everything called a deity or God, we have Zephos and cyclos, the Goddess of the Sands, the Goddess of time, and the various guardian deities in the series.

      Side note, lovely to see they used pictures of the three oracles to represent the Goddesses, considering there's no hint of a fourth oracle existing.

      • "It really seems like the forces that tie the Zelda universe together go by 4 rather than 3"
      Wait, that's it? Those are all your examples? Not to play Devil's Advocate but what about the three dragons in Skyward Sword combined with Levias that hold the four parts of the Song of the Hero? The four Divine Beasts? The name of the Four Sword? The four regions in Spirit Tracks and Phantom Hourglass? Four pieces of the Fused Shadow? Four Shards of the Mirror of Twilight? Of course, we already have one piece of both the Fused Shadow and the Mirror of Twilight at the start, giving us three temples for each to scour, but still.

      And since we're talking about Devil's advocate, if you want to claim there's way more links to the number four than the number three, why don't you count the number of 3's for reference?
      1. The most obvious example, the Triforce is a triangle made out of three triangles.
      2. The force that is known to exist in every living creature in Zelda takes the shape of a Force Gem, a triangular-shaped gem. The Light Force is a very powerful example of this.
        When all the series' most fundamental powers take the shape of triangles, you already know the number 3 means business.
      3. Three important recurring characters in Hyrule's history, the hero, the goddess, and the demon king.
      4. Three pendants of Virtue in ALttP and ALBW, red green and blue.
      5. Three spiritual stones as the keys to the Sacred Realm, red, green and blue.
      6. Three commonly reoccurring potions in the series, red, green and blue.
      7. Three oracles, red, green and blue.
      8. Three goddess pearls, red, green and blue.
      9. Three spirits to guard the Great Sea, Valoo, the Great Deku Tree, and Jabun.
      10. Three girls standing outside the STAR minigame in Twilight Princess, red, green and blue.
      11. Three fairies that serve the ocean king
      12. Three pure metals, red, green and blue, to create the Phantom Sword.
      13. Three fragments of the Ancient Tablet.
      14. Three sacred flames, red, green and blue.
      15. Three dragons. Yeah sorry but Levias is definitely not a dragon.
      16. Triforce Heroes. Period. That's it. Triforce Heroes, everyone.
      17. Three Sacred Springs in Breath of the Wild.
      In short, to claim the number 4 is more important than the number 3, is kinda horseshit.

      BACK TO TERMINA
      • "But how do we connect the wind element, the color purple, the Goddess Hylia, humanoids, the desert, Ordona?"
      Spoiler alert, we probably won't.

      • "The Garo fighting style is swift LIKE THE WIND".
      Is theory just a joke to you guys?

      • "Now look at the logos of every game in the franchise. Notice something? Yes... Majora's Mask... For it is the first and only time in the series, they drop their classic red lettering in favor of the color purple!"


      Do they just think their viewers are colorblind or something?

      Seriously, how little respect do you have for your viewers to lie to their faces like that and show them evidence that you're lying?

      They literally give us this image and don't expect us to see that five out of the twenty logos they show are very clearly not red. An entire quarter of all the logos they show.
      The Adventure of Link is clearly the first game to not have red letters. Look, you can see it, right there. Here's the box art for good measure:



      For that matter, three of those twenty logos are just remakes with identical logos. Master Quest, with its blue logo, is of course missing.
      Breath of the Wild's logo had already been shown to the public two months before this video aired, and of course, it was not red.

      Again, is this video just a joke?

      • "There is a common theory that connects the Majora's Mask to the Fused Shadow of Twilight Princess. Let's take a look, shall we?"
      This is one of those theories I can understand the support for, but choose not to support myself, so I'm very glad to get into this.

      • "In general, when several masks are created by the same tribe, they are likely to share some sort of symbol, like a signature, or a style".
      The Twili live in an entire realm that has a very unified aesthetic. Strong angular shapes are mixed in with perfect geometric circles. A common animal motif is a segmented snake of uniform thickness slithering in an angular fashion.

      Majora's Mask deviates significantly from this design principle.

      • "The eyes of Majora's Mask match perfectly with the remaining eye of the Fused Shadow"
      Fun fact, they don't actually.



      Look for an actual closeup image, any closeup image, of the Fused Shadow at a proper angle, and you'll see that where the eyes of Majora's Mask have a beautiful axis of symmetry, a small iris and pupil and thin eyelids the Fused Shadow's eye has a shape that stretches upward and outwards for far longer, a much larger iris and pupil, and thicker lids.

      Hilarious fact: Lockstin & Gnoggin used an image which I photoshopped together back in 2014 DISPROVING the "perfect fit" of Majora's Mask and the Fused Shadow in their video. The image can be seen at 8:25 in the video and my image can be found here, where I go more into the differences between the design of the Fused Shadow and the design of Majora's Mask.

      Another fun fact: The Fused Shadow actually has two eyes, though very few know of the second eye's existence as it's on the back, right behind Midna's ponytail:



      Of course, this particular eye is not seen in Majora's Mask, unless you want to claim it's a Sheikah eye without a tear, which is a stretch.

      That's another huge rabbit hole to dive into though, but going down the rabbit hole of just how absurdly many variants of eye symbols you can find in the Legend of Zelda is worth doing simply because it generalizes your scope from "the same tribe" to "just about any magician or monster in the history of the series" and prevents you from making hasty connections like hacky Youtube theorists.

      • "The mask was created by an ancient tribe and used for hexing rituals and sacrifices"
      They literally show the correct quote onscreen so I don't have to even go into why the underlined parts are entirely made up.

      • "The Hyrulean Civil War is when the Interloper War happened"
      No source given, presented as a fact. Sloppy.

      • "In this realm of shadows, the interlopers changed form, becoming the Twili"
      A picture is shown of the Shadow Beings that Zant transformed the Twili into. I'm gonna mark this as a mistake by the editor, but still, sloppy.

      I mean, surely even hacky Youtube theorists should know that these distorted creatures are not what actual Twili look like, right?

      • "But still retaining a particular custom. Each and every single one of them... wears... a mask."


      Sweetie. No.

      Two things:


      These are clearly not masks. These are weird plate extrusions smacked right on top of their necks. There is no way there's a face hiding beneath this.

      Secondly, these are not what the Twili look like, even accounting for the distorting effect of the Twilight realm.



      This is a Twili. This is what you get when you look at the wiki page's example image.

      This video shows absolutely no grasp on the simplest things, holy crap, when was the last time they played this game.

      • "Hylia is strongly affiliated with time, creating both the Master Sword and the Ocarina of Time, as well as the Gates of Time. She also has the ability to reincarnate again, and again, and calls out for her chosen hero to be reborn with her."
      Not quite. The Ocarina of Time is HINTED AT to have been created using Timeshift stones, a naturally occurring mineral that the Ancient Robots in Skyward Sword were mining for her. Likely, the same goes for the Gates of Time.

      The obvious question is, why would the Goddess of Time need to gather these? If Hylia is the Goddess of Time, then who created Timeshift Stones?

      The Master Sword is only affiliated with time travel because it's used as a key of sorts in the Temple of time. While this is a point of contention, personally I feel the pedestal is the part that allows time travel, not the sword itself; otherwise, we wouldn't need to be anywhere near the temple to go back and forth.

      Lastly, the idea that Hylia is the sole reason why Link and Zelda reincarnate over and over again is ridiculous, as many characters in the Zelda series reincarnate, and even disregarding those, the commonly accepted answer for the cyclical struggle between the three main characters is the curse of Demise.
      • "Tatl cries out for the Goddess of Time to help. This means that the Goddess of Time is the only deity that the Terminians still worship, no longer the three Goddesses".
      I'm gonna pop a vein.

      First of all, we've acknowledged that Termina is an entirely separate dimension from Hyrule. So even the idea that it was created by the three Goddesses, or that the Terminians would know of this as the Sacred Realm's entrance is all the way over in Hyrule, is questionable.
      Second, Skull Kid, Tatl and Tael are first encountered in Hyrule. We don't even know if Tatl was originally from Termina, and she is the only other character to acknowledge the Goddess of Time. Third, the Four Giants are explicitly said to be worshipped as Gods by Anju's grandmother, and they are referred to as Gods several times throughout the game.

      • "The number 4 in Zelda is associated with the wind, purple, Ordona, the Desert / Gerudo, humanoids and Hylia, which now includes time. It has a strong association with the game Majora's Mask, as this is the game where these are most represented" (The text doesn't quite match up with the narration so I added every element of both.)
      ... I'm sorry, what.
      Where did you get the wind in Majora's Mask. Ordona? The Gerudo? The desert? Can you even call this Hylia worship if the biggest sign of Hylia Worship, her statue, isn't anywhere to be found?

      NOTHING ABOUT THIS MATCHES UP.

      • "The Garo are the Terminan equivalent of the interlopers, the Twili and the Sheikah. And the castle of Ikana is actually the Terminan equivalent of Hyrule Castle. We know this because Zant wears a mask, robes, and dual wields sabers, along with his hectic behavior."
      Owww my head.
      Zant is literally the only Twili to follow any part of this pattern. Even so, his hectic behavior does not match up to the Garo's honorbound way of fighting at all.

      Then, a picture of Impa is shown, with an arrow pointing to the short, straight sword tied to her back, similar to a wakizashi, and the text calls it a SABER. This is just... painful.

      • "The Happy Mask Salesman is a Sheikah. He has a slightly darker skintone, pointy ears and red eyes, all traits EXCLUSIVE to the Sheikah.
      This is shown along with a french Wiki article with the text "Les Sheikahs ont les yeux rouges et les oreilles pointues (comme les Hyliens)".

      Let's ignore why the hell they'd add a french article and focus on the fact that the article itself states the pointy ears are NOT EXCLUSIVE to Sheikah at all. And the darker skin tone?



      Looks pretty dang white to me.



      What part of this guy shows a darker skintone anyways?



      WHAT PART OF THIS GUY'S EYES IS RED, ANYWAYS?!

      *sigh*

      ... I can't believe we're only halfway through this garbage fire.

      PART 3 - THE CULT OF MASKS

      • "Hilda is a Sheikah because of her red eyes, pointy ears and darker skin."
      Sloppy shit again. Hilda has no darker skin. They make a comparison, but they don't account for the possibility that Hilda's official artwork has starker lighting, giving her a more dramatic appearance. In-game, the difference can't be seen.

      Of course, if Hilda hadn't had pointy ears, Lockstin & Gnoggin would be calling her a Gerudo because obviously the doppelganger of the Hylian princess can't be a Hylian.

      • "Hilda destroyed Lorule's Triforce."
      Do you clowns even watch your own videos? The video clearly shows Hilda saying her ancestors did that.

      • "In A Link to the Past, it is shown that once the Triforce gets messed up, the Sacred Realm becomes the Dark World. People who enter the Dark World get transformed into a shape that matches them, turning evil people into monsters."
      It also shows that Hyrule itself is perfectly fine, as the Triforce is not messed up, it just split up, something that has been done over and over again in the series history with no serious results. The Sacred Realm transforming is because it's "a mirror that reflects the hearts of those who set foot in it".
      Ganon's heart shows a twisted mirror of Hyrule, ruled by darkness. There is no mention in the lore about the Triforce's state having anything to do with Ganon's corruption of the Sacred Realm.

      • "Knowing all this, it's easy to conclude that it's after the destruction of the Triforce that people began to turn into monsters."
      No. It is stupid to conclude this, and your entire theory is stupid. Literally no one in the game turns into a monster except arguably Yuga.

      • "The twisted form of Kakariko Village, the Thieves Town, holds the Milk Bar of Majora's Mask."
      So does the regular form of Kakariko Village, you hack. And unlike the Lorule version, the Hyrule one actually has Barten (or Talon), rather than the Ingo (or Gorman) equivalent found in Lorule.

      • "The Milk Bar has clearly been put there for a reason. It's a huge clue that leads us into thinking that Lorule is actually Termina, prior to its fall."
      I am going to pee into every pair of socks you own.

      • "The big thing lies in the central plaza, where a cult has settled. A guru, wearing a mask that resembles the face of a monster, preaches to the terrified residents. Which is understandable. They're terrified of becoming monsters! But that will inevitably happen anyway... which is why he offers them a way of redemption. He is certain that the corruption lying in each and every one of them will sooner or later take them away. And the Goddesses won't save them now. Only monsters will. Simply put, wearing masks gives them strength!"
      ... nooooo. No one in the entire game has the fear of becoming a monster. Nowhere is it mentioned that people are turning into monsters.

      The simple fact is that the world is crumbling around them, and the only creatures thriving in this environment are monsters. So they have the silly, desperate, misguided idea, that pretending to be monsters will save them.
      The cult leader is literally chanting "mumbo jumbo, mumbo jumbo", a clear sign that the cult is just desperate people trying out random things.
      To put it in Stages of Grief terms since we just can't get enough of that, bargaining.



      Glory to the Floating Head and all that.

      • "It's easy to assume the people fortified Thieves Town to keep monsters away, exactly like Clock Town."
      Hyrule Castle Town is a gated, moated, guarded, walled community. Kakariko Village in Ocarina of Time is also a gated community, with guards, lying within the natural walls of a valley. The Gorons live in a cave with only a select amount of entrances. The Kokiri are naturally guarded by the surrounding Lost Woods, and a guard is stationed near the only entrance to Kokiri Forest. The Zora live behind a waterfall that can only be opened by the Messenger of the Royal Family.

      Everyone is scared of monsters and outsiders, faith in the Goddesses or not.

      • "Everything here tells us that Lorule and Termina are one and the same."
      They show a checklist here that reads:
      - Alternate version of Hyrule
      - Character alter-egos
      - Religion has disappeared

      Point one is blatantly false; Termina is completely different in landmarks and layout compared to Hyrule.
      Point two naturally follows from point one anyways. Sure, the two alternate universes contain alternate universe doppelgangers, shocker.

      This is disregarding the facts that Termina's doppelgangers and Lorule's doppelgangers don't follow the same logic.





      Even the complete doppelgangers still differ in color scheme at least, something that's incredibly easy to change for a game developer.
      With Terminan counterparts, they didn't bother.



      Even the Triforce on Cremia's belt remains intact, a detail they removed from Flat and Sharp.

      Lastly, the point of Termina having a lack of religion. The Carnival of Time, the central event of Majora's Mask that the whole game leads up to, is a harvest festival, designed for the sake of appealing to the Gods, the Four Giants.

      "For ages, people have worn masks resembling the giants who are the gods of the four worlds. Now, it has become a custom for each person to bring a handmade mask to The Carnival of Time." — Anju's grandmother

      BOOM. This single piece of evidence explains the religion of Termina. It explains the fixation on masks that all the Terminans have. And it's all so painfully simple to figure out.

      • "Alright, so far the video has been analysis and finding clues. Now's the time we get to the hypothetical part. The real theory. So let's put quote unquote on everything, and use our imaginations."
      Oh so this is the part that has all the baseless speculation and wild assumptions. Unlike the other 19 minutes. Gotcha.

      You know what, I'm not going into this. It's all absolute bullshit. This theory was, by far, the worst thing I've gone through yet.

      This is a complete train wreck of a theory and I hate it. Thank you for listening.
    • To summarize my main contention points with this video:
      • Termina has a religion, and a good relationship with their deities. It is completely unlike Lorule's crumbling existence. Both have an established, well-explained relationship with masks, but those two origins are completely different for anyone bothering to dig into it.
      • Random characters are being called Sheikah, Twili and Garo with no respect for the backstories or deeper lore of any of these characters. Their means of identifying Sheikah are ridiculous.
      • There is a huge focus on the number four, the color purple, the Sheikah / Twili / Garo / Gerudo / Terminians (all the same, apparently), and the Tetraforce.
        But nothing about it resolves. Even if every piece of the puzzle wasn't a goopy pile of shit, it's not a cohesive theory at all.
        What was the point of bringing up the Tetraforce? How was Ordona relevant? For what higher purpose was Majora's Mask made?
      • As many others pointed out, the whole video was a painstaking effort to connect pieces of the series with one another for no other reason than to connect them.
      There. Video fucking eviscerated.

      gamtos out.
    • gamtos wrote:

      "Now look at the logos of every game in the franchise. Notice something? Yes... Majora's Mask... For it is the first and only time in the series, they drop their classic red lettering in favor of the color purple!"
      To be fair, I think they meant it was the only time to use purple letters, not the only time to drop the red letters.

      gamtos wrote:

      Second, Skull Kid, Tatl and Tael are first encountered in Hyrule. We don't even know if Tatl was originally from Termina, and she is the only other character to acknowledge the Goddess of Time.
      The man in the Oceanside Spider House also appeals to the Goddess of Time for help.
      Goddess of the Sands

      Map of Thyphlo Ruins

      Forest Architects

      If you have Amiibo Tap: Nintendo's Greatest Bits on Wii U, you can reset which games your amiibo unlock by deleting the game and then redownloading it.
    • Apparently they stole the theory from some French guy, hence the French sources, but people who steal theories tend not to use the exact same imagery as the people they're stealing from. Other people claim it's a joke. If it's neither, using images in a different language for no reason is a ROOKIE mistake.

      You're this forum's resident Majora's Mask person.

      Maybe my April Fool's theory could be a tenuous connection one?

      EDIT: There was a Milk Bar in Phantom Hourglass, too. With the logic Gnoggin uses, he could easily involve that old "the World of the Ocean King is Termina" theory, but then again, most YouTubers don't take the DS games seriously.
      Want to debunk bad non-Zelda theories?

      gamtos wrote:

      The Sheikah are mysterious magic wielders, and this basically makes them a fan-favorite band-aid over any unexplained part of the lore. It's the Zelda equivalent of saying "a wizard did it", but we're always claiming it to be the same wizard.

      The post was edited 4 times, last by Nitro Indigo ().