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    The Legend of Zelda: ________
    • RealmWings wrote:

      The thing is, are the deku an inherently evil species? I feel as if something more sinister would be behind them...

      Inherently, no- we encounter plenty of friendly ones throughout the series, and even the ones in FSA are only non-hostile NPC's. However, in FSA, Ganon apparently awakened the Deku from some kind of slumber, and thus they gratefully revere him and do his bidding; and they are also stated to want to expand the Lost Woods so they can travel Hyrule freely. So, if this is set after FSA, then said expanded Lost Woods would provide a pretty good catalyst to drive everybody underground, and thus the Deku who expanded the forest would make for viable antagonists, though peaceful individuals and groups of them could still exist.

      MORPHRELINK wrote:

      So I'm confused. Are we going with Death Mountain eruption and a creature awakened from within? Or Deku Invasion and terraforming? Clearly we can't have both. At least not on the same scale.

      To the best of my knowledge, this hasn't been settled on- the idea of a Death Mountain eruption was suggested early on, and I threw in the Deku/Lost Woods idea as another possibility.

      I personally am not too keen on the eruption idea- it seems needlessly cataclysmic and dark, especially for this series- but the group will ultimately decide.
    • RealmWings wrote:

      We're mainly brainstorming at this stage. No need to rush through this, we want to find the best option.

      In that case you're right. Deku's aren't big enough to be a main villain. I can see the deku's being a sub plot though for the forest region.
      Courage is not the absence of fear, it is the ability to overcome it.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by MORPHRELINK ().

    • Dang this stuff goes fast.

      Let me again clarify the concept I have about this underworld -- I want surface exploration to be almost exclusive to the "dungeon" portion of the game. Every expedition to a new part of the surface will have a specific goal, boss, and reward, though will probably borrow heavily from the Divine Beast structure for a more open-ended approach to the dungeons.

      There may be underworld dungeons, and in a way the entire cave system is a progressive dungeon (as I've said, like the Temple of the Ocean King); but I don't want the surface to just be another part of the world traversal.

      I'm loving the bat creature concept. I've also got something to show you all in terms of the atmosphere I'm thinking of for this cave system. This song I whipped up would go in some particularly wet caves -- perhaps the paths leading to Zora's Domain:

      It has the OoT/MM/WW cave kind of instrumentation, but is a bit more melodic. Other cave sections could of course have something like a remix of LtP's or LA's cave themes, but this kind of sound I think would work great for a lot of the in-between caves and pathways.
      INACTIVE UNTIL 2021

      The post was edited 1 time, last by logicalpencils ().

    • That's really nice!

      Also, didn't someone mention that the surface could also just be so overrun by monsters, that it would be impossible for the hylians to take it back. I'm not sure if it's a good idea, just throwing it here.

      I think the surface should have a big difference to the underground other than the environment, like the enemies being completely new or just something. Maybe most enemies on the surface could be really big.
    • MORPHRELINK wrote:

      RealmWings wrote:

      We're mainly brainstorming at this stage. No need to rush through this, we want to find the best option.
      In that case you're right. Deku's aren't big enough to be a main villain. I can see the deku's being a sub plot though for the forest region.

      I see no inherent reason why the Deku can't be "big enough" to be primary antagonists. They had an entire society, complete with a monarchy and state religion, in MM, and while granted this was itself pretty limited in scope, it goes to show that they can be expanded upon pretty easily. They've just as much physical and cultural potential as any other race or monster.


      Regarding the underground/surface dichotomy, my mind immediately goes to the system in SS- the underground would be more or less analogous to Skyloft and serve as a hub world, while the surface would be primarily the setting of the dungeons, though we can of course have overlap and mix things up to keep things fresh.
    • GamerKitty205 wrote:

      Violothesheikahboy wrote:

      I'm saying:

      Hylians

      Gorons

      Zora [maybe two variants]

      Mogma

      Rito

      And those bat guys.
      Just pointing out that Gerudos aren't on the list. They are still going to be in the game, right?
      We could have them on the surface?


      Right, this is the main problem I'm having: What role is the surface going to play? I mean, I would like for it to be an equal size to the caves, so very large. I've already mentioned the Hylians reclaiming the surface.


      Oh, the Deku thing. I think that they should be a long side quest or part of a dungeon. They originally appear as enemies, but then they help you somehow.
      "I was defeated by the mere sight of the innkeepers skirt length!"
      -Qrow Branwen

      "I know this might be hard to believe, General, but uh... I'm not the biggest fan of local law enforcement."
      -Roman Torchwick
    • Setras wrote:

      I see no inherent reason why the Deku can't be "big enough" to be primary antagonists. They had an entire society, complete with a monarchy and state religion, in MM, and while granted this was itself pretty limited in scope, it goes to show that they can be expanded upon pretty easily. They've just as much physical and cultural potential as any other race or monster.

      I simply just don't see anything in the dekus known arsenal that would even remotely stand up to the Hyrule Kingdom and the races it allies itself with.


      Okay so maybe we should focus on what exactly drove the Hylians underground in the first place. I feel as just having Hyrule over run by monsters isn't enough on its own. Hyrule typically has a reasonably sized army so I don't see them packing up and calling it quits. Not even Calamity Ganon and his control over the guardians was enough to run the Hylians off completely.

      I feel it should be something that makes the land of Hyrule uninhabitable altogether. Something that would make it next to impossible for the Hylians to venture out into the surface for long periods of time such as toxic air or a nuclear winter.

      And whatever it is, IF monsters are running amuck, why are they not affected too?
      Courage is not the absence of fear, it is the ability to overcome it.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by MORPHRELINK ().

    • MORPHRELINK wrote:

      Setras wrote:

      I see no inherent reason why the Deku can't be "big enough" to be primary antagonists. They had an entire society, complete with a monarchy and state religion, in MM, and while granted this was itself pretty limited in scope, it goes to show that they can be expanded upon pretty easily. They've just as much physical and cultural potential as any other race or monster.
      I simply just don't see anything in the dekus known arsenal that would even remotely stand up to the Hyrule Kingdom and the races it allies itself with.


      Okay so maybe we should focus on what exactly drove the Hylians underground in the first place. I feel as just having Hyrule over run by monsters isn't enough on its own. Hyrule typically has a reasonably sized army so I don't see them packing up and calling it quits. Not even Calamity Ganon and his control over the guardians was enough to run the Hylians off completely.

      I feel it should be something that makes the land of Hyrule uninhabitable altogether. Something that would make it next to impossible for the Hylians to venture out into the surface for long periods of time such as toxic air or a nuclear winter.

      And whatever it is, IF monsters are running amuck, why are they not affected too?
      I'd say some kind of smog from Death Mountain. Maybe Link can go on to purify parts of the air with Goddess springs? Or maybe Zelda can help him with that?
      "I was defeated by the mere sight of the innkeepers skirt length!"
      -Qrow Branwen

      "I know this might be hard to believe, General, but uh... I'm not the biggest fan of local law enforcement."
      -Roman Torchwick
    • Embalistico wrote:

      And the monsters could just be protected by the villain's dark magic
      Hmm, maybe.... Or maybe they just have a natural resilience?
      "I was defeated by the mere sight of the innkeepers skirt length!"
      -Qrow Branwen

      "I know this might be hard to believe, General, but uh... I'm not the biggest fan of local law enforcement."
      -Roman Torchwick
    • I'm gonna keep pushing surface as being exclusively for dungeons. The sequence will be some kind of grand, unique exiting of the cave system for each area of the surface, and a broad, open area where the player has a lot of things they could do to progress through the "dungeon". Each dungeon would be, say, nearly the size of the Great Plateau -- some smaller, one or two larger. But peaceful races would be almost non-existent on the surface, and certainly no towns or anything. The player on the surface will have a singular focus on completing whatever they're on the surface for, including fighting a boss and getting that heart container.

      As for a sufficient catalyst for people living underground for at least half a century (if the bioluminecsent Zora are to be believeable, for example), I propose something like this series of events leading up into the cataclysm:
      1. Hylians find some awesome resource in caves
      2. Great structures and systems are made for the purposes of harvesting these resources
      3. Eventually, settlements are made and civilian-safe routes through Hyrule
      4. Super bad thing
      INACTIVE UNTIL 2021

      The post was edited 1 time, last by logicalpencils ().

    • MORPHRELINK wrote:

      I simply just don't see anything in the dekus known arsenal that would even remotely stand up to the Hyrule Kingdom and the races it allies itself with.

      They can easily be given new abilities. We've never seen the Deku use magic, for example, so if some Deku figured out how to use it, it'd give them an advantage. Physical mutations to produce bigger and more versatile specimens is also a possibility. Again, they can be powered up and tinkered with just as any other race and creatures can, and giving them the necessary powers and capabilities to pull off the takeover wouldn't be that outlandish since any antagonist we cook up would need to be given the same basic buffs to be a credible threat.

      Understand, I'm not married to the Deku/Lost Woods idea, and if the group collectively decides it's not worth pursuing, then that's that. But I'm defending it so much because from where I sit, it seems to answer a lot of current questions.

      What drove everyone underground? The spread of the Lost Woods- most people who wander around said Woods become Deku Scrubs (thus adding to the enemy army), Stalfos, or Skull Kids, and the Woods also seem to spawn other monsters as well. We can also easily introduce variants of typical enemies who have been affected by the presence of the Woods in their own way- they'd adapt to the Woods and the curse on them just as the underground races would adapt.

      Why is the enemy not affected? Because the Deku are created by the presence of the Woods and helped to spread them in the first place. And again, other enemies could be affected to give us different variants and enemy types.

      Surface travel would be largely restricted to certain "safe(r)" areas (i.e. dungeons), because wandering around in the rest of the Woods is to risk getting lost and falling victim to their effects, not to mention dealing with the monster infestation. Thus, the underground serves as the hub world while the surface is largely dungeon-focused (though some limited surface exploration could be possible, leading to secrets and easter eggs).

      The plot would involve seizing key locations from the Deku to drive back the Woods and their influence.


      To me, they seem to at least conceptually tick every box.
    • There are three worries with the Lost Woods plague, as clever as it is:
      1. It would be a great restriction on the artistic creativity and diversity of the surface dungeons
      2. It would centralize an entire race other than demons as the villains, which has never happened before
      3. It would be hard to show the effects this has on the overworld, compared to something else like a Malice plague that could be seen from a tower in the first dungeon