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    Determining where Holodrum and Labrynna are
    • Labrynna and Holodrum are the only real nations outside of Hyrule we ever visit in the series. Sure there's Koholint Island and the World of the Ocean King, but those turned out to be kind of fake and Termina is located in a different realm completely. Labrynna are the only two, real nations we have seen existing alongside Hyrule. So it's understandable that a lot of fans have wondered where they actually are. Using what little evidence the games provide, I've come up with this.

      We never get a direct indication as to which direction Hyrule lies in relation to these lands, but a clue appears in where the games both start. Nayru and Din are fleeing towards Hyrule at the start of both games, assuming they started their journey from the main villages, we can conclude the direction they're heading in roughly correlates with where Hyrule is. Furthermore, in both games Zelda comes from Hyrule, so we can conclude the direction she comes from is also where Hyrule lies. With this in mind, we can determine Holodrum and Labrynna both lie to the south of Hyrule. The next thing to do was to decide which incarnation of Hyrule to use. Out of all the locations in Holodrum and Labrynna, only one corresponds with a location in Hyrule, that being The Lost Woods, located in North West Holodrum. So we just had to find a version of Hyrule that has The Lost Woods in the south east of the map, Ocarina of Time being the only candidate (although there's a bit of a case for The Minish Cap given Din, Nayru and Farore appear in that game, but the forest in the south east of that game is called the Minish Woods, so I've discounted it). That fitted Holodrum onto the map neatly, so the last thing to do was just fit Labrynna in somewhere south of Hyrule. I decided to place it so the coast of Holodrum and Labrynna match up, we know both of these countries are closely connected given all the travelers between them, so having them boarder each other makes sense.

      I will add that the Deku Woods, the name given to the past version of the Fairies Woods, actually does appear in Tingle's Freshly Picked Rosey Rupee Land, but I don't know all that much of that game, so I haven't included it on the map.
    • Nice! I never even thought about this before. I wonder, though, just how massive the Lost Woods are. I like how they connect Holodrum and Hyrule, putting them on the same landmass. H.E. claims that Labrynna is to Holodrum what Lorule is to Hyrule, but I like to think otherwise.

      Cool thread, and good job! You rock!

      Edit- Also, the Deku Forest is found in Tri Force Heroes, which takes place in Hytopia, also on the same landmass as Hyrule. Perhaps Labrynna is close by to Hytopia? Or the Drablands, I should say...
      :ghirahim: :cucco: :look: :tingle: :moon:

      The post was edited 3 times, last by Guinea ().

    • Fubsy wrote:

      Nice! I never even thought about this before. I wonder, though, just how massive the Lost Woods are. I like how they connect Holodrum and Hyrule, putting them on the same landmass. H.E. claims that Labrynna is to Holodrum what Lorule is to Hyrule, but I like to think otherwise.

      Cool thread, and good job! You rock!

      Edit- Also, the Deku Forest is found in Tri Force Heroes, which takes place in Hytopia, also on the same landmass as Hyrule. Perhaps Labrynna is close by to Hytopia? Or the Drablands, I should say...
      I forgot about Hytopia truth be told. I guess aside from Labrynna and Holodrum, that's the only other nation we know of existing in the Zelda World (also discounting the CD-I games and New Hyrule of course). I don't think there's any confirmation it's on the same landmass as Hyrule though. In fact, given how it's an incarnation of Toon Link featured in that game (if it's even Link at all) I think it's likely that could be New Hyrule. More research may be required. Hytopia does at least seem to have an ocean to the North, so I think that discounts it from being connected to Labyrnna unless what appears to be North is actually west or something.

      (And yes, I know some faceless Nintendo employee said it's the same Link as A Link Between Worlds, but that's blatantly not the case and was clearly spouted to try and sell more copies of ALBW).

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Jotari ().

    • Interesting! That's an approach I haven't seen before, and a very clever one. Any one instance would be a little less certain, as roads can sometimes wind around in very different directions before finally turning to their ultimate destinations, but with four examples (Din, Nayru, and two paths for Zelda), it's a lot easier to be confident in the conclusion. Would you care to elaborate on the process? Maybe on the map, you could mark the presumed starting point and the end point, to show how the paths take the characters to and from Hyrule? This is coming from someone who hasn't played either Oracle game, so I'm not in a position to do that myself.

      Jotari wrote:

      Out of all the locations in Holodrum and Labrynna, only one corresponds with a location in Hyrule, that being The Lost Woods, located in North West Holodrum. So we just had to find a version of Hyrule that has The Lost Woods in the south east of the map, Ocarina of Time being the only candidate
      Is it safe to say that you're not using the official timeline, then? Otherwise, it would have made more sense to line these up with ALttP Hyrule. In any case, I'm skeptical of the use of the Lost Woods as a guide, given how often they seem to move around Hyrule.

      (although there's a bit of a case for The Minish Cap given Din, Nayru and Farore appear in that game, but the forest in the south east of that game is called the Minish Woods, so I've discounted it).
      The figurine for Nayru in Minish Cap says that she's a member of a line of oracles from Labrynna, so it's reasonable to think there would be oracles of the same name in other eras. Having the Oracle games take place near Minish Cap on the timeline is an appealing idea, but that runs into other problems (Ganon being already dead, for one), so I think you were wise to set that aside.

      Jotari wrote:

      I decided to place it so the coast of Holodrum and Labrynna match up, we know both of these countries are closely connected given all the travelers between them, so having them boarder each other makes sense.
      Sounds good to me. They wouldn't necessarily be right next to each other, but they might as well be for the sake of the map.

      The other thing I'm curious about is how you would fit these with the BotW map. That one mostly matches with the OoT one (though the locations of the Great Plateau and Lost Woods do raise a few questions), but it extends beyond OoT's borders. Just from the maps, it looks like the southern coasts of Holodrum and Labrynna could be the southern coast of BotW's map. The mountains at the north of Holodrum and Labrynna could be the mountain range that separates Faron from Necluda. But there are a lot of details that probably don't match up quite so nicely.
      Goddess of the Sands

      Map of Thyphlo Ruins

      Forest Architects

      If you have Amiibo Tap: Nintendo's Greatest Bits on Wii U, you can reset which games your amiibo unlock by deleting the game and then redownloading it.
    • Evran_Speer wrote:

      Interesting! That's an approach I haven't seen before, and a very clever one. Any one instance would be a little less certain, as roads can sometimes wind around in very different directions before finally turning to their ultimate destinations, but with four examples (Din, Nayru, and two paths for Zelda), it's a lot easier to be confident in the conclusion. Would you care to elaborate on the process? Maybe on the map, you could mark the presumed starting point and the end point, to show how the paths take the characters to and from Hyrule? This is coming from someone who hasn't played either Oracle game, so I'm not in a position to do that myself.

      Jotari wrote:

      Out of all the locations in Holodrum and Labrynna, only one corresponds with a location in Hyrule, that being The Lost Woods, located in North West Holodrum. So we just had to find a version of Hyrule that has The Lost Woods in the south east of the map, Ocarina of Time being the only candidate
      Is it safe to say that you're not using the official timeline, then? Otherwise, it would have made more sense to line these up with ALttP Hyrule. In any case, I'm skeptical of the use of the Lost Woods as a guide, given how often they seem to move around Hyrule.
      (although there's a bit of a case for The Minish Cap given Din, Nayru and Farore appear in that game, but the forest in the south east of that game is called the Minish Woods, so I've discounted it).
      The figurine for Nayru in Minish Cap says that she's a member of a line of oracles from Labrynna, so it's reasonable to think there would be oracles of the same name in other eras. Having the Oracle games take place near Minish Cap on the timeline is an appealing idea, but that runs into other problems (Ganon being already dead, for one), so I think you were wise to set that aside.

      Jotari wrote:

      I decided to place it so the coast of Holodrum and Labrynna match up, we know both of these countries are closely connected given all the travelers between them, so having them boarder each other makes sense.
      Sounds good to me. They wouldn't necessarily be right next to each other, but they might as well be for the sake of the map.
      The other thing I'm curious about is how you would fit these with the BotW map. That one mostly matches with the OoT one (though the locations of the Great Plateau and Lost Woods do raise a few questions), but it extends beyond OoT's borders. Just from the maps, it looks like the southern coasts of Holodrum and Labrynna could be the southern coast of BotW's map. The mountains at the north of Holodrum and Labrynna could be the mountain range that separates Faron from Necluda. But there are a lot of details that probably don't match up quite so nicely.
      Yeah, ignoring the official timeline. I have some problems with it, especially in regards to the Oracle games where it implies it's the same Link as ALTTP, which isn't possible given Link meets Zelda for the first time in the Oracle games. Regarding Breath of the Wild, no clue, I only really considered games released in close proximity to the Oracle games. Though given how large and varied Breath of the Wild's Hyrule is, especially with it having a sea in the south and east, it might just be possible to map out Holodrom or Labyrnna inside that version of Hyrule itself.
    • Jotari wrote:

      Labrynna and Holodrum are the only real nations outside of Hyrule we ever visit in the series.
      As has already been said, there are Hytopia/Drablands and New Hyrule, but we also have Ordona, that isn´t part of Hyrule, and Wayaway, the origin place of the Ho Ho Tribe. That guys of PH are first presented in WW, so I think it can be a real country. Also in PH the kingdom of Cobble is mentioned, but its real existence is more than dubious.

      Jotari wrote:

      - Nayru and Din are fleeing towards Hyrule at the start of both games.
      - In both games Zelda comes from Hyrule, so we can conclude the direction she comes from is also where Hyrule lies.
      - I haven´t be able to find that moment. Exactly when it appears?
      - As far as I remember, Zelda isn´t seen coming from any direction. Can you be more specific?

      For me, the only fact that can determine their placement, at least between each other (not from Hyrule) is the Pirates route from Labrynna to Holodrum. They set sail from the Sea of Storms of Labrynna and shipwrecks in the eastern Holodrum, so Holodrum must be to the west from Labrynna. Furthermore, when they continue their travel, they go again to the west, further suggesting that their original travel was also to the west:


      From this assumptions, and with this in mind...

      Jotari wrote:

      we know both of these countries are closely connected given all the travelers between them

      Evran_Speer wrote:

      it would have made more sense to line these up with ALttP Hyrule.
      ... I think this is one of the most simple relation we can find between all three:

      Evran_Speer wrote:

      The other thing I'm curious about is how you would fit these with the BotW map.
      Most of OOX references in the BoW map are in the eastern coast, but it didn´t help so much cause most of theories about Holodrum and Labrynna location fits with those references one way or another. The only other reference I have found may be the Mapla Point in Necluda, possibly named after Maple, who first appear in OOX, althought she was included in the Alttp gba remake.
      "Who does not want to think is a fanatic, who cannot think is an idiot, who does not dare to think is a coward." -Sir Francis Bacon-
    • Ginko wrote:

      Jotari wrote:

      Labrynna and Holodrum are the only real nations outside of Hyrule we ever visit in the series.
      As has already been said, there are Hytopia/Drablands and New Hyrule, but we also have Ordona, that isn´t part of Hyrule, and Wayaway, the origin place of the Ho Ho Tribe. That guys of PH are first presented in WW, so I think it can be a real country. Also in PH the kingdom of Cobble is mentioned, but its real existence is more than dubious.

      Jotari wrote:

      - Nayru and Din are fleeing towards Hyrule at the start of both games.
      - In both games Zelda comes from Hyrule, so we can conclude the direction she comes from is also where Hyrule lies.
      - I haven´t be able to find that moment. Exactly when it appears?- As far as I remember, Zelda isn´t seen coming from any direction. Can you be more specific?

      For me, the only fact that can determine their placement, at least between each other (not from Hyrule) is the Pirates route from Labrynna to Holodrum. They set sail from the Sea of Storms of Labrynna and shipwrecks in the eastern Holodrum, so Holodrum must be to the west from Labrynna. Furthermore, when they continue their travel, they go again to the west, further suggesting that their original travel was also to the west:


      From this assumptions, and with this in mind...

      Jotari wrote:

      we know both of these countries are closely connected given all the travelers between them

      Evran_Speer wrote:

      it would have made more sense to line these up with ALttP Hyrule.
      ... I think this is one of the most simple relation we can find between all three:

      Evran_Speer wrote:

      The other thing I'm curious about is how you would fit these with the BotW map.
      Most of OOX references in the BoW map are in the eastern coast, but it didn´t help so much cause most of theories about Holodrum and Labrynna location fits with those references one way or another. The only other reference I have found may be the Mapla Point in Necluda, possibly named after Maple, who first appear in OOX, althought she was included in the Alttp gba remake.
      I said Holodrom and Labrynna are the only kingdoms we visit in the series. Although I was forgetting about Hytopia and the Drablands. If you want to list nations just mentioned though, there's also the unnamed enemy nation that the Garo hailed from in Majora's Mask. The Cobble Kingdom also is a location you outright visit in Phantom Hourglass, unless there's something to suggest the king was buried somewhere far beyond its borders. Moot though anyway since it's part of the World of the Ocean King which isn't physically part of Hyrule's word.

      The direction Nayru and Din are travelling is working under the assumption that their staring point was Horon Village and Lynna City. Zelda also appears in the same area and is definitely heading towards the village.

      Does the Pirate Ship change direction when playing a Linked Game? If so, that's some very compelling evidence, but I highly doubt they went to that trouble. You're assuming Oracle of Ages is the first game in the sequence; not an irrational assumption for many reasons, but an assumption nonetheless. I'd prefer a working theory that works in either scenario though. Also, of note, is that the Piratians are located in the past in Oracle of Ages (in a non linked game), so it takes them three hundred years to get to Holodrom, which means there's no credibility that they were heading in the right direction.

      That Link to the Past map, which I've seen before, is pretty faulty. Namely, Talus isn't a name that appears in A Link to the Past and the "Zora Connection" involves to completely different species of Zora, making the Holodrom connection completely baseless. The Labrynna connection is also based on rather generic features of forests and deserts which basically every game has (though not necessarily in that North South configuration granted. Then again, I'd hesitated to even call the highlighted section of A Link to the Past woods, it's more just the tree boundary of Kakariko Village).

      The post was edited 4 times, last by Jotari ().

    • Thinking on that shared Talus Caves/Talus Peaks thing, an adding it to my original map, it comes up with this.




      Talus Caves/Peaks have some how drifted south slightly, but the relative position of the three locations works surprisingly well (assuming the Sea of Trees is a renamed Lost Woods). Even the location of a river on the eastern edge works well with the river in Holodrom and Zora's Domain (although Onox's keep would need to be blasted out of existence for it to flow from that far north). Amusingly, this lay out would presume Hyrule eventually invaded Labyrnna and Holodrom if sections of their land are considered part of Hyrule in the era of Four Swords (whenever that may be. I guess it's possible it takes place earlier and Holodrom/Labyrnna were established as independent nations later).

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Jotari ().

    • @Jotari

      I just wanted to list them, yes. I´m very interested in all places outside Hyrule and their placement, althought I think only Labrynna, Holodrum and New Hyrule can be placed efectively. There are also some points to know the "Hyrule world" position of Koholint and the WotOK. They didn´t really exist, yeah, but it doesn´t mean Link wasn´t in some place when those events started.

      And about your map, congrats for the Din, Nayru and Zelda travels deduction. I understand you now, have revised their positions and can´t be more agree with you. Very solid and my new headcanon. Thanks. It´s even interesting to have that very short section of their route, cause the angle of their complete trajectory may differ a little and let us to place Labrynna and Holodrum searching for geographic coincidences. Also, the south placement of the two countries fits with BoW much better than any other theory I´ve ever seen, that use to place only one of them to the south. And what seems very relevant to me is the Four Swords and Talus connection you made, even also the indirect connection that results between Crescent Island and Eventide/Koholint. LA japanese manual states that Koholint is an island south from Hyrule, so althought it didn´t exist, gives us a reason to relate it with Eventide (with its Koholit Rock) and (now with your map) Crescent Island, cause the two are also to the south in a very similar location.

      On the other hand, I think it would be nice to fit your theory with my piratians assumption, cause let me say it didn´t implies that OOA occurs first and would work in either scenario, like you said. Simply, all the piratians events starts in the past of OOA, that is obviously before any other event. I think there´s only a minor confict in the linked games:
      - In OOA, first game, past, they textually say that they´re going to travel to Holodrum. They didn´t appear in the present.
      - In OOS, first game, they have shipwrecked in Samasa desert and, after you help them, they say they´re going to set sail again, going to the west.
      - In OOS, linked game, they´re again in Holodrum, where the events of the first game are repeated except for one detail I don´t want to spoiler.
      - In OOA, linked game, present, the captain recognizes you and textually says that they have come back from Holodrum. They didn´t appear in the past.
      I definitely think linked OOS occurs before linked OOA and the repeated piratians event is a expanded version of the first, like it is in countless cases in the linked games. But if not, the last two points can be exchanged, althought it would imply some crazy round trips and strange repeated shipwrecks.

      In any case, all of this would fit with your theory if we just assume that, when they set sail after the shipwreck in OOS first game, they´re not continuing their travel but retracing its steps to return to Labrynna, as we can later see in linked OOA

      I hope you don´t bother if I copy your theory in a OOT-positioned-Alttp-map (45º clockwise as we can see in HE), cause I´m not a timeline heretic XD and I think it can bring some new connections.
      "Who does not want to think is a fanatic, who cannot think is an idiot, who does not dare to think is a coward." -Sir Francis Bacon-

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Ginko ().

    • Ginko wrote:

      @Jotari

      I just wanted to list them, yes. I´m very interested in all places outside Hyrule and their placement, althought I think only Labrynna, Holodrum and New Hyrule can be placed efectively. There are also some points to know the "Hyrule world" position of Koholint and the WotOK. They didn´t really exist, yeah, but it doesn´t mean Link wasn´t in some place when those events started.

      And about your map, congrats for the Din, Nayru and Zelda travels deduction. I understand you now, have revised their positions and can´t be more agree with you. Very solid and my new headcanon. Thanks. It´s even interesting to have that very short section of their route, cause the angle of their complete trajectory may differ a little and let us to place Labrynna and Holodrum searching for geographic coincidences. Also, the south placement of the two countries fits with BoW much better than any other theory I´ve ever seen, that use to place only one of them to the south. And what seems very relevant to me is the Four Swords and Talus connection you made, even also the indirect connection that results between Crescent Island and Eventide/Koholint. LA japanese manual states that Koholint is an island south from Hyrule, so althought it didn´t exist, gives us a reason to relate it with Eventide (with its Koholit Rock) and (now with your map) Crescent Island, cause the two are also to the south in a very similar location.

      On the other hand, I think it would be nice to fit your theory with my piratians assumption, cause let me say it didn´t implies that OOA occurs first and would work in either scenario, like you said. Simply, all the piratians events starts in the past of OOA, that is obviously before any other event. I think there´s only a minor confict in the linked games:
      - In OOA, first game, past, they textually say that they´re going to travel to Holodrum. They didn´t appear in the present.
      - In OOS, first game, they have shipwrecked in Samasa desert and, after you help them, they say they´re going to set sail again, going to the west.
      - In OOS, linked game, they´re again in Holodrum, where the events of the first game are repeated except for one detail I don´t want to spoiler.
      - In OOA, linked game, present, the captain recognizes you and textually says that they have come back from Holodrum. They didn´t appear in the past.
      I definitely think linked OOS occurs before linked OOA and the repeated piratians event is a expanded version of the first, like it is in countless cases in the linked games. But if not, the last two points can be exchanged, althought it would imply some crazy round trips and strange repeated shipwrecks.

      In any case, all of this would fit with your theory if we just assume that, when they set sail after the shipwreck in OOS first game, they´re not continuing their travel but retracing its steps to return to Labrynna, as we can later see in linked OOA

      I hope you don´t bother if I copy your theory in a OOT-positioned-Alttp-map (45º clockwise as we can see in HE), cause I´m not a timeline heretic XD and I think it can bring some new connections.
      I think if it's rotated, you'd run into problems with Lake Hylia protruding into Labrynna, but go for it. Might elicit some interesting results.
    • Well, this is what results switching the OoT map for the Alttp one:



      Besides the connections we have already mentioned, I strongly thinks that the northern mountain range of Holodrum (Tarm ruins, Temple remains, etc.) is the region of Akkala. In fact, I´m starting to think that almost all east coast of BoW are Labrynna and Holodrum.

      Talus cave/peaks also would fit perfectly with Mount Lanayru.

      PD: Should not this post be in the theorizing section?
      "Who does not want to think is a fanatic, who cannot think is an idiot, who does not dare to think is a coward." -Sir Francis Bacon-

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Ginko ().

    • Jotari wrote:

      I decided to place it so the coast of Holodrum and Labrynna match up, we know both of these countries are closely connected given all the travelers between them, so having them boarder each other makes sense.
      Very interesting the graveyard connection. It´s curious how, in the Holodrum map, the border isn´t "close" in the graveyard, being the only border of whole map that way and obviously suggesting that the graveyard continues:


      They fits really well together:
      "Who does not want to think is a fanatic, who cannot think is an idiot, who does not dare to think is a coward." -Sir Francis Bacon-
    • I'm not sure Hyrule exists in the same physical space as Holodrum or Labrynna. The Lost Woods seem to be a place where lots of realities intersect so their presence doesn't really mean that these places exist together. The Zelda universe (heh) is full of parallel dimensions and worlds between which, while they don't physically exist together, one can travel. Trying to place them together on a map is an exercise in futility, as it is far more effort than Nintendo or Capcom put into it when making these games. If they do fit together, it's pretty much pure coincidence.
    • Skaalgard wrote:

      I'm not sure Hyrule exists in the same physical space as Holodrum or Labrynna. The Lost Woods seem to be a place where lots of realities intersect so their presence doesn't really mean that these places exist together. The Zelda universe (heh) is full of parallel dimensions and worlds between which, while they don't physically exist together, one can travel. Trying to place them together on a map is an exercise in futility, as it is far more effort than Nintendo or Capcom put into it when making these games. If they do fit together, it's pretty much pure coincidence.
      People send homing pigeons between Hyrule and Holodrum/Labrynna. Those are some damn fine birds if they can navigate the lost woods and enter different realms with enough reliability to send messages.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Jotari ().