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    Counting the Population of Hyrule (OoT)
    • So, this is my first non-MM theory, and it's a big one!
      (Or, rather, half of it is data accumulation.)
      Just like in MM, I counted ALL the people appearing in OoT! Some mathematical analysis in the first half... Made some assumptions about Hylian culture in the second half, and all that stuff...
      I really hope you like it...
      Hm, somehow I don't know what to say anymore... I have a table of contents, so you'll get the overall picture.

      Download Link:
      dropbox.com/s/pl3ko2ix90lyoxc/…20Hyrule%20(OoT).pdf?dl=0

      I also stealth edited my MM text (the carpenters are now classified as industry, not [public/private] service).

      Edit: This current version is not final! It will be updated with more precise data/numbers and additional remarks in the near future.

      Edit 2: I finally completed everything related to counting and have updated my version. I think despite potentially missing 2 or 3 Deku, my numbers are accurate now.
      "A puppet that can no longer be used is mere garbage.
      This puppet's role has just ended..."
      - Majora


      My major theories:

      Counting the Population of Termina

      Counting the Population of Hyrule (OoT)

      The post was edited 3 times, last by Romano-British Medli ().

    • OMG! Impressive work! I think I was the only who has done that crazy counting work. I´m going to enjoy a lot reading your analysis, thanks!

      I haven´t practice my english for some time and it´s gonna take some time to me to read it, but in a first view, I want to mention some toughts:

      - Your numbers match almost perfect with mines, but I have missed 2 guards and I think you have missed one or two zoras. One of them is a zora girl that the funny zora in lake hylia mentions (the one near the laboratory, I think). She isn´t seen, but I see no reason to think he lies about her existence. I can´t identify the other without the game, and I haven´t it right now. I can tell you the next monday.

      - I can´t identify a lot of gerudos and the numbers seems to differ a little. My character descriptions are very similar to yours in most of cases, but here are confusing. I will check them carefully, but what criteria you use to count gerudo, due to you can only access there as adult or via glitches? and have you count the 4 controversial Iron Knuckles in the game (with gerudo inside)?

      - The only race that we aren´t even close is Dekus, with 19 members of difference. I think you haven´t count the 5 ones inside the Deku Tree, the one who upgrades your sticks under the "saria bridge" and a lot of merchants out there. For example, in Lake Hylia, the 3 of them under the grave where Kaepora is. I can give you the list when finish a carefully check.

      - Talking about Kaepora, what do you think about counting him?

      - Isn´t a low employ understable and realistic in a impoverished rural society thar has left the war behind recently?

      Thanks again!
      "Who does not want to think is a fanatic, who cannot think is an idiot, who does not dare to think is a coward." -Sir Francis Bacon-
    • Thanks for your positive words!
      It's cool to see another fellow Zelda fan being interested in statistics of the games.
      I would love to see your numbers. ^^

      Now, on to your criticism:



      About the Zoras:

      Okay, I checked the game right now: Do you mean the Zora at Lake Hylia (indeed) in front of the Laboratory, who says the following?

      Zora at Lake Hylia wrote:

      I am a Zora. Have you seen a pretty Zora girl around here?
      I always assumed (and still assume) he meant Princess Ruto... I thought the Zoras were in search of her, since she seemed to be gone for a little while now and the Zoras started to get worried.

      Hm, can't think of a second Zora I missed... One at Zora's Domain? Or at Lake Hylia? I have to double check the game, though...



      About the Gerudo:


      Ginko wrote:

      but what criteria you use to count gerudo, due to you can only access there as adult or via glitches?
      Ah, yeah, I didn't make my criteria clear here. My bad!
      I counted the 3 bridge guards you meet as a child who prevent you from even entering Gerudo Village + all Gerudo you see at the village when entering as an adult. I admit that this view can be contested, as it can be said that the 3 Gerudo we see as a child are part of the whole grow we see as an adult.

      As for the unclear descriptions, I'll try to clarify it in the following days.


      Ginko wrote:

      and have you count the 4 controversial Iron Knuckles in the game (with gerudo inside)?
      I didn't know there was a theory about Iron Knuckles being Gerudo. I thought Nabooru was an exception. Never thought about this! The wiki doesn't say anything about this, just that there are Gerudo symbols on the armours...



      About the Deku:

      Ah, I totally forgot the Deku Tree! You're right! Damn it! This makes up some of the missing numbers.

      Hm, I checked and I can't find a Deku under the Saria bridge (I assume it's the bridge that serves as the entrance to Kokiri Forest, where Link and Saria say goddbye at the beginning of the game?) I haven't met one that upgrades my sticks.

      Okay, I have to admit I totally don't know how many Deku merchants there are outside of the Forest Region and I don't know where they are! ... And here we see I know Majora's Mask way better than Ocarina of Time!
      Could you help me with them?



      About the rest:


      Ginko wrote:

      - Talking about Kaepora, what do you think about counting him?
      Wha... How... WHY DID I MISS HIM?!? Especially since I counted the owl in MM! It's somehow like my subconsciousness told me that since Rauru doesn't exist in the physical realm, I don't have to count the Kaepora Gaebora?!? ... Okay, I feel dumb now! XD

      Edit: I remembered now that I counted Rauru in the Temple of Time. Make of that what you will. This explains why I didn't count Kaepora Gaebora.

      Ginko wrote:

      - Isn´t a low employ understable and realistic in a impoverished rural society thar has left the war behind recently?
      Hm... I'm...not quite sure...
      (I mean from a technical standpoint, yes - however, if we look at OoT: )
      I somehow think Hyrule Castle Town (which I primarely based my thoughts on) looks way too wealthy and tidy to house many unemployed people... I mean they buy things at the market square and it looks to me as if the people bickering in front of the market stands don't have too many worries, if they have enough energy, free time and wealth to do this! (It's not like there was a welfare state in medieval times!) They also don't wear ragged/tattered clothes...



      Oh, no, I have to thank you for your positive and helpful answer!
      "A puppet that can no longer be used is mere garbage.
      This puppet's role has just ended..."
      - Majora


      My major theories:

      Counting the Population of Termina

      Counting the Population of Hyrule (OoT)

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Romano-British Medli ().

    • My numbers of Oot are chaotically annotated in my Zeldic notebook yet XD you have finished the work before me, although I´m counting the adult timeline too for comparative purposes. I think it would be interesting to see how the Ganon coming afected the population, how many people left Hyrule or how many are relocated. There are much less people in the AT, so it´s easier to count them. I think it would be nice to double check and analyze that count together, if you´re interested in complete your analysis that way. :cheers:

      About Zoras:

      You´re absolutely right. That one is talking about Ruto and you haven´t miss any zora more. Anyway, do you count the two zoras in the lake as Lake Hylia inhabitants in your ethnical map? as you said, they are in LH searching for Ruto, and I think they should be counted as Zora´s Domain inhabitants.

      About Gerudos

      Now that I have identify your description and mines, I´m sure you´ve miss 2 gerudos here:

      I found them in a second searching round too.

      The thing of the gerudo Iron Knuckles has been discussed for long (here or here), or you can see it by yourself with the Iron Knuckles in Ganon Castle if you locate the camera "inside" the helmet. As this is not canon, I don´t count the 4 gerudo in this case as "official" inhabitants, altough it seems interestingly enough to be mentioned.

      And I definitively think the 3 of them at gerudo valley in child timeline shouldn´t be counted.

      About Dekus:

      There are a lot of them, and I also count the ones that are in places you can´t reach as a child, similar to our gerudo criteria. I think I have count them all and I will try to complete a comprehensive list of all you´ve missed tomorrow. Dekus are a very interesting case due to his nomadic behavior and I think it should be well reflected in your work.


      I´m forced to thank you again now that I´ve read your entire analysis of OoT and MM. As interesting, revelating and enjoyable as I expected. I will question some things when finish my almost done MM counting.
      "Who does not want to think is a fanatic, who cannot think is an idiot, who does not dare to think is a coward." -Sir Francis Bacon-

      The post was edited 7 times, last by Ginko: Edited a lot of times due to multiple and irritating events... XD ().

    • You, good sir/madam have deserved a spot in my "Acknowledgement" chapter!

      Yeah, I too had the idea of comparing the A/D timeline to the C timeline. It would be very nice if I would be allowed to use your numbers. I had ideas like expressing the ratio of diminished population by percentage numbers and stuff like that... We'll see what I'll add to my paper in the future... I don't want to focus my attention on the AT/DT right now, since I already started with Wind Waker...
      Will check the game superficially when I'd get your data, but I trust your research!


      About Zoras:

      Ginko wrote:

      Anyway, do you count the two zoras in the lake as Lake Hylia inhabitants in your ethnical map?
      My ethnical map rather shows in what areas people/creatures (generally/regularly) can be found, not necessarily where they live and have made their homes.. So it's entirely plausible that the two Zoras live at Zora's Domain (sleep there during nighttime) and only visit Lake Hylia (during daytime). I just included them in Lake Hylia to make it easier for me and the reader as well...
      It's even clearer to see in my MM map, where I added travelling paths.


      About Gerudo:

      Ah, yeah, I checked my game and I definitively missed those two... (Totally forgot to check the way to/from the prison cell!)
      Thanks!

      Oohh, thanks for the Gerudo Iron Knuckle Theories, I will check them out.

      Yeah, you're right, I think I should delete the 3 CT Gerudo!


      About Deku:

      Hm, I rarely bothered with Adult Link (except for Gerudo purposes). Have to count the whole number of Deku (merchants) we see in the Lost Woods as an adult. If it exceeds 2, I may include them? Not quite sure... Although the nomadic lifestyle definitively works as an argumet to include them in the CT.
      Would be cool to see your list!


      Ginko wrote:

      I will question some things when finish my almost done MM counting.
      Looking forward to it! :)
      "A puppet that can no longer be used is mere garbage.
      This puppet's role has just ended..."
      - Majora


      My major theories:

      Counting the Population of Termina

      Counting the Population of Hyrule (OoT)

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Romano-British Medli ().

    • Okay, today I have made a Gerudo's Fortress Map to show which exact characters I meant. You may have already deciphered my descriptions, but I have put some work into these maps, so I don't want them to go to waste. Hopefully it helps you or others.

      Here they are:

      (see attachments)

      I've made some... um... maps! Hope they're still recognizable. ^^
      Images
      • Gerudo's Fortress Map Legend.jpg

        198.31 kB, 1,054×271, viewed 60 times
      • Gerudo's Fortress Map.jpg

        148.03 kB, 1,600×1,200, viewed 65 times
      • Gerudo Dining Hall Map.jpg

        40.47 kB, 800×600, viewed 64 times
      • Gerudo Green Cell Map.jpg

        18.37 kB, 800×400, viewed 66 times
      "A puppet that can no longer be used is mere garbage.
      This puppet's role has just ended..."
      - Majora


      My major theories:

      Counting the Population of Termina

      Counting the Population of Hyrule (OoT)

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Romano-British Medli ().

    • Thanks for that spot ;) It´s nice to share all this usually solitary work with someone.

      I will make and pass you a doc with the A/DT count for when you want to use it. It´s exciting to know you have started with WW. I started this project more easily with LA, but I only do graphic analysis cause I haven´t write in english for years and I´m trying to recover it quickly.

      I´m ok with the zora and gerudo questions, so go with the deku you´ve missed in CT:

      - 5 inside the Deku Tree. You can see them at 1:30 (1), 8:00 (1), and 15:15 (3).
      - 3 in Lost Woods. The one that upgrades deku sticks in Lost Woods, another one in the final crossroad before enter Sacred Meadow in a secret hole under a rock (exact place at 0:40) and the one you call "deku in corner", that goes out with the skull mask (3:33).
      - 3 in Lake Hylia, all of them in the hole under the grave where Kaepora stands.
      - 4 in Dodongo´s cavern. You counted one of them, I don´t know who. I haven´t their exact locations, but I´m pretty sure is correct. Easy to check.
      - 1 in Death Mt. crater, just down the stairs you see when enter.
      - 2 under the secret hole in the rock circle near the bean seller.
      - 1 in the secret hole just before Lake Hylia, inside the fenced zone with the pillars. I think this is the one you count as Hyrule field inhabitant.

      In the AT you can found some more that I think are also present in CT:

      - 3 at the end of the lava passage in Goron City. These are accesible as child via glitches.
      - 2 in a secret hole behind the tent of the carpenters in gerudo valley. These are also accesible as child with various methods. I can do the reverse desert glitch, but it takes some trys. I will check them and told you.

      Conflictive ones:

      - The 2 of them that exceeds in the Lost Woods in AT you mentioned. I have them anotated but I haven´t found their exact location.
      - Another 2 in Kokiri Forest. I would count them.
      - I have 3 horribly described as "3 merchants volcano" that I don´t know who I refer. I will search for them.

      Two last things. Thanks for the maps :artist: and, what do you think about using error ranges in some cases? (in a similar logic as the assumptions you do with castle guards). I mean, we can be sure of our numbers on, for example, Kokiris or Kakariko, cause we can associate characters to houses and all fits. But it´s pretty possible that, in the case of zora, goron, gerudo or castle town, there are some inhabitants that are theorically there but we don´t see for whatever reason. I use to add even a 20% to my final numbers in this cases.
      "Who does not want to think is a fanatic, who cannot think is an idiot, who does not dare to think is a coward." -Sir Francis Bacon-

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Ginko ().

    • Ginko wrote:

      It´s nice to share all this usually solitary work with someone.
      Yes, it is! I'm glad I can go with you into such details.


      Ginko wrote:

      I will make and pass you a doc with the A/DT count for when you want to use it.
      Thank you a lot. I'll PM you.

      Ginko wrote:

      I´m ok with the zora [...] questions
      I thought about your remarks regarding the Lake Hylia Zoras and I've come to the conclusion that I'll move them to Zora's Domain, because it's their primary living spot. This is exactly the criteria I used in my MM paper (putting the Old Bomb Shop Lady in East Clock Town, Tingle in Southern Swamps, Link the Goron in Goron Village; despite us never seeing them live there, I simply assumed this), so I think I should adhere to these criteria in my OoT paper as well.

      Thanks for the Deku Merchants!
      Wow, to be honest, I REALLY feel dumb and embarassed, now that I see how many wandering Deku Merchants I missed. Well, I too am just a normal human being and I make mistakes, so I hope the ZU forum will not mock me for my lack of perfect OoT knowledge while publishing a paper that relies on exactly that. ^^'
      Will take me some time to verify all these Deku Merchants, but I will do it nevertheless and tell you about it!
      Haven't made up my mind about the AT Deku Merchants, will tell you my opinion sometime...


      Ginko wrote:

      what do you think about using error ranges in some cases?
      This is an interesting question I, too, have thought about:

      The short answer:
      We should (or even must?), because it's necessary (when assuming realistic physical laws do apply in the Zelda Universe).
      The long answer:
      I think if we separate solid empirical sections from theorizing ones, we should be fine. However, I still do consider these error ranges half-canon, because Nintendo implemented some rules (either via gameply or via story/lore, by which ALL characters abide).
      My reasoning goes as follows: It is canon that some physical laws apply to (almost) all characters in the universe. From out-of-universe-perspective, this is called "gameplay mechanics", from in-universe-perspective this is called "natural/divine laws". Examples are gravity, the cycle of life and death, day-night-cycle, seasons, temperature, wind, (psycho-)logical reasoning of intelligent species and even magic (you can't use a magical device when you're out of magic! This heavily implies the law of conservation of energy applies even to magic as well! Meaning some sort of "magical energy" can be converted and is equal to kinetic energy, for example. However, I am no physicist, so my understanding of these concepts is very limited. (Ganondorf failing in the AT/CT and Link failing in the DT are empirical proofs that characters are not omnipotent and fate sometimes goes in a direction characters do not want it to go. History (and nature in general) does not care for individuals and their desires, it simply... happens...)
      From this, it is reasonable to infer that other laws exist as well (e. g. [magical] Darwinistic evolution, laws of statistics and probability). And from this, it is very reasonable to assume that society and individual beings in the ZU work similar to societies and individuals in our own world.
      To come back to the example of Hyrule Castle guards: I assume that human societies work in the same way as hylian societies (and even others!) work in Zelda (as I think humans and hylians are very similar). So to think that all the castle guards are (permanently?) out in the open guarding the garden while the castle itself is completely empty is just silly! Like... how should this even work?
      However, I don't want to appear as my numbers are strict canon and set in stone. I get people disagreeing with my exact numbers, I get people criticizing my analogies; but I still feel I made a strong point why we should go beyond the empirical data we see and simply assume things we will never get to see.
      What I mean by "separating solid empirical sections from theorizing ones" is to simply say "Hey, in this chapter, we are no longer counting people we see in-game, but we are assuming theoretical things not explicitly stated in the game!", so every reader is on the same page as we are and can view our theorizing parts sceptically but also in a constructive way.

      I never thought about adding 20% to other/minor races, but I see your point! Definitively a thought worth considering!
      "A puppet that can no longer be used is mere garbage.
      This puppet's role has just ended..."
      - Majora


      My major theories:

      Counting the Population of Termina

      Counting the Population of Hyrule (OoT)