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    Radicalisation of toxic masculinity

      Post by '.' ().

      This post was deleted by the author themselves ().
    • @Baby Seal: Your "being rewarded" phrase was a poor choice of words, but, disregarding that, I think I understand what you were trying to say with that.


      "Toxic masculinity" is, by and large, a societal concept that encompasses how men are raised to behave a certain way that does a lot of harm to others, particularly women. Because it is something that is influenced by how we teach of and perceive what a "man" is, it makes sense that it's not entirely something perpetuated just by males. Women can certainly contribute to the perpetuation of "toxic masculinity" with their own behaviors and beliefs.

      The whole "nice guy" thing is something that is completely built off of male entitlement, that men should be owed sex for behaving or acting a certain way. But, in a more general sense, I think that a lot of young males, particularly those who may have self-confidence issues, go through a very confusing time around adolescence about what direction they should be taking themselves as a person and how they should behave. Confidence is a huge boost to a person's attractiveness, or, at least, exuding a sense of confidence is. And, unfortunately (and, this may be due to a whole variety of factors; be it the extreme competitiveness, dog-eat-dog mentality that gets demanded and rewarded in a capitalist society, among other things), being a generally aggressive and demanding person and just a general asshole to people can exude a warped aura of confidence around a person. And women, (mainly young women I would say), can see such a persona as attractive. And if they do, then there's really nothing wrong with that, it's her choice who she's attracted to, but from a young male perspective, it's going to warp their perception of what "confidence" is and think it's synonymous with aggression.

      As I'm writing this, I'm remind of an excellent discussion I saw on another forum a while back about a book written by a transgender woman regarding gender issues and toxic masculinity, and in it, she described a lot of her own experiences both pre and post her reassignment surgery, and how she kind of dealt with and was very cognizant of gender issues when it comes to dating for both men and women, and she talked about how young men deal with a sort of crisis when it comes to dating about how they feel is the right way to behave versus what behavior seems to get the most success with relationships with women. One particular example was that of a male friend of hers who was particularly unsuccessful with women for most of his life, but eventually shifted his outward personality to that of the typical "asshole", changing his entire interaction with women from being engaged and friendly towards them to a very aloof, distant, and cold demeanor towards women. It eventually got to the point that she eventually broke off ties with the male friend because she was disgusted with how he would now talk towards women, but ended the story by saying he was more successful with women than he ever was before. This is not a lot to go on at all, but if any of you happen to know of the book I'm describing here, please let me know. I don't remember what it was and I really wish I could link to it here. It was a feminist book that went into great detail about the dynamics of relationships between men and women, and showing how toxic masculinity makes both men and women suffer.

      Anyway, my point is that "confidence", especially for males, is kind of skewed in society, less having to do with just having self-respect and sensible assertiveness and instead gravitating more towards aggression, coldness, and, indeed, "asshole" behavior. Whatever that stems from, be it pop culture like movies, capitalism, and everything else about society, it's something that needs to be focused on and changed.

      And while those males who succumb to the self-pity party of the infamous "nice guy" only have themselves to blame for their misery, there is a discussion to be had about why the hell that ever became a prevalent thing in the first place.

      The post was edited 5 times, last by Common Knowledge ().

    • I think saying that men feeling like they "deserve" relationships or sex is entitlement, while true enough, doesn't adequately describe the phenomenon. In fact, the mindset that they are owed such things is, I think, part of the reason so many of them don't get them.

      Seeing relationships and sex as "rewards" given by women to men for "good behavior" misunderstands both roles. As it turns out, men and women generally want similar things from relationships, even if they don't know it: they want someone they have fun with , are comfortable with, share certain values with, and, in one way or another, find attractive. No healthy relationship is complete without a feeling of reciprocity and concern for the other's happiness in a way that goes beyond normal empathy.

      In other words, it's not "the man does these things, and then the women does some other thing she otherwise wouldn't want to do" or even "there is a set template for what women are looking for". If a woman doesn't want a relationship with a man, it's not because hasn't completed some predetermined set of tasks that obligate the woman to return the favor. It's because the man doesn't provide what that individual woman enjoys in a relationship. That doesn't mean the man is a bad person! It's just that women, like men, have preferences, many of which can be orthogonal to the issue of being a good person. So a relationship isn't a "reward", it's mutually fulfilling and requires idiosyncratic compatibility. "Good behavior" not only doesn't obligate anyone, most of the time it's actually insufficient for a good relationship.

      It's similar to the unstated myth that women don't enjoy sex. Sure they do! But for some reason popular culture has decided sex is something women endure for the sake of their partners, something they can use as a bargaining chip and easily withhold because hey, it's not like want it themselves. That's nonsense, of course. (It's also not true that all men want out of relationships is sex.) Women get something out of sex, and they want something out of the relationships they're in that goes beyond being a good person.
      When the gods drave me forth to toil and assailed me with thirst and beat me down with hunger, then I prayed to the gods. When the gods smote the cities wherein I dwelt, and when Their anger scorched me and Their eyes burned, then did I praise the gods and offer sacrifice. But when I came again to my green land and found that all was gone, and the old mysterious haunts wherein I prayed as a child were gone, and when the gods tore up the dust and even the spider's web from the last remembered nook, then did I curse the gods, speaking it to Their faces, saying:—

      "Gods of my prayers! Gods of my sacrifice! because Ye have forgotten the sacred places of my childhood, and they have therefore ceased to be, yet may I not forget. Because Ye have done this thing, Ye shall see cold altars and shall lack both my fear and praise. I shall not wince at Your lightnings, nor be awed when Ye go by."

      Time and the Gods

      The post was edited 3 times, last by Vulpes ().

    • It's something that I don't understand how the hell the whole "women don't really like sex" or "women hold the power to reward you or not reward you with sex" was ever a viable belief for anyone. Like, if that was really the case, isn't that, you know, kind of depressing as hell for everyone involved? I sure as heck don't want a woman having sex with me just because she feels obligated to because I ticked all the right boxes that activated her "grant sex" button. I want a woman to have sex with me because she's attracted to me, and you know, wants to have sex with me. I mean, geez, the former scenario would lower my self-esteem way more than just never having sex or being in relationships. And this is just me as a straight male talking, nevermind how women feel actually having to deal with the bullshit implications of those misconceptions and myths their whole lives.



      tl;dr Incels are weird and old-fashioned viewpoints on the dynamics of sexual relationships that they believe are fucking weird.
    • It's interesting: the belief that women enjoy sex less is of relatively recent vintage (as in, within the last few centuries). If you go back further, to, say, Ancient Greece, the opposite was believed: women were seen as less capable of controlling their passions than men. Of course, that's pretty silly, too.

      It's also interesting to note that, along with the myth of women not enjoying sex, there is the almost contradictory myth that female orgasm is more intense. This myth has quite a long history. One myth found in Ovid's Metamorphosis (among other places) is that of Tiresias, a man who, according to legend, spent many years as a woman after he interrupted some mating snakes (Greek mythology is weird). In a related myth, Zeus and his wife Hera were arguing over whether men or women took greater pleasure in sex, and went to Tiresias, who would presumably know, for an answer. Tiresias opined that women felt more pleasure in sex, a statement which upset Hera enough for her to blind him.

      Insofar as it's possible to answer the question scientifically, most of the evidence seems to suggest that orgasm is similar for men and women. In a 1976 study, Vance and Wagner asked males and females to describe orgasm. Neither psychologists nor physicians, whether male or female, were able to identify the sex of the participant based on their description. A 2009 fMRI study by Georgiadis et al. found that while the brain activation of males and females differed during genital stimulation, during orgasm itself they were very similar. A 2006 study by Brody and Krüger found that blood prolactin levels increased by similar amounts in males and females following intercourse. So the weight of evidence seems to indicate that at least physically, sex is equally pleasurable for men and women.
      When the gods drave me forth to toil and assailed me with thirst and beat me down with hunger, then I prayed to the gods. When the gods smote the cities wherein I dwelt, and when Their anger scorched me and Their eyes burned, then did I praise the gods and offer sacrifice. But when I came again to my green land and found that all was gone, and the old mysterious haunts wherein I prayed as a child were gone, and when the gods tore up the dust and even the spider's web from the last remembered nook, then did I curse the gods, speaking it to Their faces, saying:—

      "Gods of my prayers! Gods of my sacrifice! because Ye have forgotten the sacred places of my childhood, and they have therefore ceased to be, yet may I not forget. Because Ye have done this thing, Ye shall see cold altars and shall lack both my fear and praise. I shall not wince at Your lightnings, nor be awed when Ye go by."

      Time and the Gods
    • I am glad you have finally defined toxic masculinity or at least defined it to some extent. In previous arguments you have brought it up, just name dropping it. I felt, as an admittedly cis-hetero male, that you were attacking me based on things I had no control over. I now, hopefully correctly, understand what you mean by this. I no longer feel like a target, as I don't consider myself an incel, and I don't think I exhibit any characteristics of an incel (others would be a more proper judge of that as I am obviously biased towards myself), and I at least try not to (and hopefully I am successful in doing so) exhibit any of the traits that you have defined as toxic masculinity (again I am not the best judge).

      Thank you

      I do have some questions about your essay, and I apologize if I have missed them in other responses.

      You bring up "hegemonic masculinity", the preceding adjective suggests that there are different forms of masculinity, would you mind listing and defining these other types. I only ask you this to scratch the sociological itch that I have.

      Second question, you mention specifically that hegemonic masculinity is white. I either disagree with this or it is under a different category. I think this because in Western culture we have black people in media fulfilling the rest of those parameters. One notable example is T'Challa in Black Panther. He is handsome, good with women, classy, and powerful (he's the king of an Afro-futuristic society for Pete's sake). Another, though not as specific, is gangster rap culture. This is a genre of music that is significantly black and has people bragging about how many women they have had sex with, how much money they have, and how they have spent it. Do these also do not fulfill the parameters aside from race? It also has to be mentioned that many cultures outside of the West have also followed the parameters of "hegemonic masculinity". Among them that I can think of off the top of my head are China and India who are obviously not white. If you would not mind explaining why white was a specific aspect of "hegemonic masculinity"?

      In terms of incels, I agree they are a problem, I just don't know how much of a problem they are. I might be wrong, but I don't think that they are on every street corner on the prowl for women (I exaggerated for humorous effect as I find the incel "community" hilariously pathetic, but I don't find the actions they condone funny). Basically, are they as big of a problem as you say. I agree that 1 is too many, but having 1000 of them is a lot different than say, a billion. I just don't know.


      Vulpes wrote:

      I think part of the problem is that males don't have as many ways to feel attractive and desirable as females. Women can wear flattering clothing and makeup and feel sexy, even if they are not actually looking for sex, or even sexual attention. Great! Good for them. It's good for their confidence and self-image. But how does a man feel sexy? While things like status and physical attributes may make a man sexy, that doesn't mean they make him feel sexy. In a way, the only way a man has to feel sexy is to have sex, and so men start to tie their self-image into their ability to have sex. Men need ways to feel sexy without having sex, like women.

      Men should be able to feel pretty, is what I'm saying.
      As a man with a very low self-esteem, I can say this is a very valid point. I have been complimented on my appearance outside of my mother, grandmother, my father, my uncle, and various people who filled a similar role of mother or grandmother somewhere between 1 and 5 times, and I have cried 100% of the time. I feel as though I am an unattractive person who happens upon weirdos or stupid people that number of times, and those exceptions I made are from people who will say that even if you looked like a hairball had defecated.

      Personally, I compliment people when they deserve it, most commonly I say, "you have a nice smile" to people who have a nice smile, and it makes me happy that I could make them smile even more.

      I guess what I am trying to say is that I am in complete agreement from my own personal experience.

      I also agree with the fact that has basically been said that men also have body image issues. For example when I see my crush express how much of a hunk Chris Hemsworth is, and will barely give me the time of day when I say hello, it seriously hurts and makes me feel as though I have very little value as a human being, because it's quite obvious that I am no Chris Hemsworth.

      (Battle of Kadesh, May 1274 BC)

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Dr.Gazooks ().

    • Dr.Gazooks wrote:

      Thank you

      de nada


      I do have some questions about your essay, and I apologize if I have missed them in other responses.

      You bring up "hegemonic masculinity", the preceding adjective suggests that there are different forms of masculinity, would you mind listing and defining these other types. I only ask you this to scratch the sociological itch that I have.

      There are really as many forms/performances of masculinity as there are men, really. Every man is unique in that sense, but you can still group different performances of masculinity together, just as you could phenotype into race.

      So Hegemonic Masculinity is the one that is most dominant and has the most currency, but there is also I think black masculinities, of which there are subtypes, such as Obama, who performs a very colonised, and really "white" form of masculinity, but retains lots of the swagger that is common within the African American community.

      I would argue that there is a certain type of hypermasculinity at play in the way rockstars and other musicians perform their masculinity. Rockstars are often more at liberty to gender-bend their performances than other men because they are hypersexual and compensate by showing off an access to women.

      There's also the type of masculinity that geeks/dorks/nerds often play to, dressing conservatively, if not sloppily/lazily.

      There's the masculinity of homosexual men, of which there are literally dozens if not hundreds of typifications, such as Bears, Foxes, Twinks, Cubs, Gym Bunnies, Bottom, Top, Daddy, Zaddy, Otter, Cha Cha Queen, Closet Queen, Power Bottom, et cetera, et cetera.

      When we talk about about masculinities in this way we are talking about the performance of masculinity, the acts and behaviours that one engages with in their expression of their gender. It is incredibly diverse! With some being more "masculine" than others, as per social understanding, and all of them on a spectrum of value and power.


      Second question, you mention specifically that hegemonic masculinity is white. I either disagree with this or it is under a different category. I think this because in Western culture we have black people in media fulfilling the rest of those parameters. One notable example is T'Challa in Black Panther. He is handsome, good with women, classy, and powerful (he's the king of an Afro-futuristic society for Pete's sake). Another, though not as specific, is gangster rap culture. This is a genre of music that is significantly black and has people bragging about how many women they have had sex with, how much money they have, and how they have spent it. Do these also do not fulfill the parameters aside from race? It also has to be mentioned that many cultures outside of the West have also followed the parameters of "hegemonic masculinity". Among them that I can think of off the top of my head are China and India who are obviously not white. If you would not mind explaining why white was a specific aspect of "hegemonic masculinity"?


      Good question. Hegemonic masculinity is white because white men are the hegemon. T'Challa, and hell, someone like Idris Elba, both have very hegemonic masculine performances, yes, but what happens when they are in a police car and get pulled over by the cops?

      A white man with the same performance of masculinity (acts, behaviours) would probably have nothing happen, a black man however would be suspected as a drug dealer, "How did you get this car? How can you afford such a nice suit? Do you sell drugs?" are all questions that could come up in the minds of police, since black men are notably invisible from such strati of economic success unless represented as criminals.

      You bring up hip hop and a particula performance of black masculinity:

      look

      Toxic masculinity is like alcohol.

      Alcohol is toxic to humans, literally a poison that we ingest in small quantities for its mild effects. Toxic masculinity likewise is something that all men have been taught to play into from time to time, to get the privileges that come from it. Afterall, what “woke” man can honestly say they haven’t ever used the patriarchy to shut down a woman? You’re a liar if you do.

      My abuse of toxic masculinity is pretty light from what I’ve observed, but that’s because I am privileged. Privileged enough to have an education, citizenship status, and because I can pass as white during Melbourne’s overcast winter months.

      But just like alcohol, addictions become disruptive when they fill the voids in our life left behind by other systemic and personal factors. Addictions are only challenged when they hamper our ability to function, when they are used to self medicate from trauma or fill the gaps that would normally be filled with strong valuable relationships. After all, you can still be alcohol dependent and “function”.

      While privileged men are certainly more than capable of being literal monsters (Harvey Weinstein), it is observable that toxic masculinity is often the only tool that oppressed men believe they have at their disposable.

      Men who come from lower socio-economic circumstances, from broken and violent families, who experience racism and police brutality are more likely than their privileged brothers to commit violent crimes because the only tool they often have left is their masculinity – it’s the one thing the patriarchy won’t take away from them, having already crippled them emotionally and sexually.

      And that means they become accustomed to the use of violence to achieve their ends. It means also that they must view womxn as property and thus control and dominate their property, as nothing is a bigger challenge to one’s masculinity than being dominated by a womxn.
      But the entitlement remains, they still are told that they deserve more, and for oppressed groups of men, they do. The problem is toxic masculinity taught us the universe owes us everything – but the universe is indifferent.

      There is nothing more dangerous than a body taught to use violence to achieve its ends, that is also told is it entitled to what it desires. This is the molecular equation of toxic masculinity. Where I can use my education to get what I want, for other men, all they have left is their masculinity and they will defend it with everything.



      So the thing is when an oppressed group of men get access to many of the things they covet, they often want to make sure that everyone can see it and know it. Unlike white people who are told not to show off, because it is innappropriate to talk about wealth, black and other oppressed cultures make sure everyone know that they have made it, that they have access to all this good shit, hence there is a lot of "all ma bitchez get in my lambo" type lyrics. In a world where you've been told you wont amount to shit, it is a rebellious if not radical act to value yourself so much, especially to the chagrin of your oppressors.

      But this masculinity is NOT hegemonic. No CEO performs this kind of masculinity, no president does. If they did can you imagine the backlash they'd get? This is why you can see Trump plays a form of hypermasculinity, not hegemonic masculinity. Hegemonic masculinity is so valued, people almost universally aspire to it/do not question it. Black hip hop masculinity is criminalised to the point the cops will literally kill you for driving down the street performing it. That's not hegemonic, that's oppressed, and the oppressed by definition cannot be hegemonic.




      On your point about cultures, yeah most of this is culture specific, I don't think that undermines the point in the slightest.
    • Lucretia wrote:

      Baby Seal wrote:


      Firstly that casual sex leads to toxic femininity and then that casual sex leads to an obsession with being a sex symbol. also a definition on what toxic femininity is?
      because i've never heard of that before and would like to read up on it.

      I think now we're starting to get somewhere as i can see what your motivating values are, but i still need to understand more of your point: what exactly is wrong with casual sex and how does this lead to the problems we are discussing?
      Casual sex removes sex from a certain highly specific context (marriage, dedicated monogamy) that it is socially acceptable to engage in, and encourages it to take place at any time with anyone. Without this highly specific context, it becomes encouraged, even expected, to partake in, which can be toxic in itself. Peer pressure to lose one's virginity and to see it as a 'rite of passage' to adulthood or higher social standing, expectation for a woman to 'put out' or be 'experienced,' teasing/ bullying for a man who remains a virgin, sexual harassment by a man on a woman ( or woman on a man) or taking too much of an unwanted attention or interest in a person that is based on sexual craving. Media tells girls and women early on that they have to be sexy or beautiful to matter, basing her worth on how should I say this accurately? Her fuckability. At the same time, it tells men that they aren't 'real men' unless they are tough guys getting laid or actively pursuing women, otherwise he's either considered gay or 'beta.'

      Sex without these boundaries also breeds porn and prostitution (both extremely high risk 'occupations' for exploitation and abuse) because if sex can be had anywhere, why have self control anymore, and why not encourage the notion that men 'need' sex, so that these things can always remain available for 'use?'

      Lastly, casual sex encourages the partaking partners to basically use each other. They are just a means to an end - sexual gratification, which underpins the incel movement and anything underlying pornography and prostitution. To use somebody casually in this manner is to reduce them to a set of sexual organs, the man a living dildo and the woman a flesh light. In a sense they stop being people, and become something to be used and then disregarded or thrown away once the need is taken care of, because there grows an expectation that sex should be able to be had at any time, with anyone, there are no strings attached and consequences (and guilt or shame) should be minimal. It is often always telling that in order to continue using someone through porn or prostitution without guilt, various myths are often created and perpetrated (she's doing it to pay for college, she enjoys it, it is empowering, etc.) to assuage the guilt one might feel so one can continue to get sexual gratification without the constraints of conscience getting in the way. The bottom line being in all of these is that sex is expected to be freely available, all of the time, anywhere, with anyone, without guilt, consequences or having to wait for it. And when it is not, it breeds resentment, anger and entitlement, because something that everyone else is getting freely is being 'denied' to them, it is as if they are being denied a basic right.
      Rymes with 'Achoo.'

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Aku ().

    • I strongly disagree with your marginalization f sex workers. The effects of casual sex are due to how men and women are conditioned to see sexually available women as worthless. To that it’s impossible to conduct sex work respectfully ignores the existence of cultures that held the practice to be sacred.
    • Aku wrote:

      Lastly, casual sex encourages the partaking partners to basically use each other. They are just a means to an end - sexual gratification, which underpins the incel movement and anything underlying pornography and prostitution. To use somebody casually in this manner is to reduce them to a set of sexual organs, the man a living dildo and the woman a flesh light. In a sense they stop being people, and become something to be used and then disregarded or thrown away once the need is taken care of, because there grows an expectation that sex should be able to be had at any time, with anyone, there are no strings attached and consequences (and guilt or shame) should be minimal. It is often always telling that in order to continue using someone through porn or prostitution without guilt, various myths are often created and perpetrated (she's doing it to pay for college, she enjoys it, it is empowering, etc.) to assuage the guilt one might feel so one can continue to get sexual gratification without the constraints of conscience getting in the way. The bottom line being in all of these is that sex is expected to be freely available, all of the time, anywhere, with anyone, without guilt, consequences or having to wait for it. And when it is not, it breeds resentment, anger and entitlement, because something that everyone else is getting freely is being 'denied' to them, it is as if they are being denied a basic right.
      First, I think you have an inaccurate impression of what casual sex entails. I don't think most casual sex advocates would be happy with the description "at any time, with anyone, [with] no strings attached and consequences". What they are really advocating is that people should be able to use their sexuality as they choose, within certain reasonable boundaries. If you don't want a promiscuous partner, that's fine! But just as no one has the right to decide your sexual behavior for you, you don't have the right to tell other people that their sexual behavior is wrong—again, within certain limits. And even people who are promiscuous don't see sex as meaningless—"casual" here doesn't mean "flippant".

      Second, one problem with the categorical imperative and its forbidding of treating people as means to an end is that it does not take into account how people actually want to be treated. People generally aren't satisfied with being treated as ends-in-themselves. People generally want to feel useful and that they're contributing. In a sexual context, this means that people want to be sexually objectified—to a certain extent, under certain circumstances, and by certain people. (I have problems with the term "sexual objectification", but this isn't the time for that.) They want to feel sexy and desired and attractive. Perhaps you find it degrading, but they don't, and in general telling people how to feel about their own lives is not a great idea.
      When the gods drave me forth to toil and assailed me with thirst and beat me down with hunger, then I prayed to the gods. When the gods smote the cities wherein I dwelt, and when Their anger scorched me and Their eyes burned, then did I praise the gods and offer sacrifice. But when I came again to my green land and found that all was gone, and the old mysterious haunts wherein I prayed as a child were gone, and when the gods tore up the dust and even the spider's web from the last remembered nook, then did I curse the gods, speaking it to Their faces, saying:—

      "Gods of my prayers! Gods of my sacrifice! because Ye have forgotten the sacred places of my childhood, and they have therefore ceased to be, yet may I not forget. Because Ye have done this thing, Ye shall see cold altars and shall lack both my fear and praise. I shall not wince at Your lightnings, nor be awed when Ye go by."

      Time and the Gods
    • Aku wrote:

      Casual sex removes sex from a certain highly specific context (marriage, dedicated monogamy) that it is socially acceptable to engage in, and encourages it to take place at any time with anyone. Without this highly specific context, it becomes encouraged, even expected, to partake in, which can be toxic in itself. Peer pressure to lose one's virginity and to see it as a 'rite of passage' to adulthood or higher social standing, expectation for a woman to 'put out' or be 'experienced,' teasing/ bullying for a man who remains a virgin, sexual harassment by a man on a woman ( or woman on a man) or taking too much of an unwanted attention or interest in a person that is based on sexual craving. Media tells girls and women early on that they have to be sexy or beautiful to matter, basing her worth on how should I say this accurately? Her fuckability. At the same time, it tells men that they aren't 'real men' unless they are tough guys getting laid or actively pursuing women, otherwise he's either considered gay or 'beta.'
      allll of this nonsense is just patriarchy and toxic masculinity at work. It has nothing to do with casual sex itself.
      Sex without these boundaries also breeds porn and prostitution (both extremely high risk 'occupations' for exploitation and abuse) because if sex can be had anywhere, why have self control anymore, and why not encourage the notion that men 'need' sex, so that these things can always remain available for 'use?'
      since when does casual sex encourage the notion that sex can be had "anywhere" or "anytime"? Casual sex is just sexual intercourse outside of the institution of marriage. Think of it as being the same as any interpersonal activity. With some of my friends, I have dinner with them, or go see a movie. With others, we make out and have sex. Why does that need to be a big deal? Self-control is still important and encouraged, because an important part of casual sex, as with any sex, is consent.

      secondly, casual sex has nothing to do with porn or prostitution. You think people who are in strictly monogamous relationships don't look at porn? Come on. And don't demonize sex work either; exploitation and abuse are products of the patriarchy and the legal crusade against prostitution, not inherent to sex work itself. Ideally sex workers would set the terms of their own work and be empowered by it.
      Lastly, casual sex encourages the partaking partners to basically use each other. They are just a means to an end - sexual gratification, which underpins the incel movement and anything underlying pornography and prostitution. To use somebody casually in this manner is to reduce them to a set of sexual organs, the man a living dildo and the woman a flesh light. In a sense they stop being people, and become something to be used and then disregarded or thrown away once the need is taken care of, because there grows an expectation that sex should be able to be had at any time, with anyone, there are no strings attached and consequences (and guilt or shame) should be minimal.
      there's a hell of a lot of nonsense in this paragraph. First of all, casual sex is not dehumanizing. Casual sex is two (or more) people, often friends, having a shared experience and having fun. Trust me, I have a lot of experience here. Casual sex should be fun and safe for everyone involved, just like any recreational activity that people engage in.

      and no part of casual sex leads to expectations of sex being had at any time or with any person, that's ridiculous. That kind of entitlement is a product of toxic masculinity, not casual sex itself. Does the idea of friends hanging out and eating meals together make you think that you should be able to do that at any time with any person? What kind of leaping to conclusions is that?
      It is often always telling that in order to continue using someone through porn or prostitution without guilt, various myths are often created and perpetrated (she's doing it to pay for college, she enjoys it, it is empowering, etc.) to assuage the guilt one might feel so one can continue to get sexual gratification without the constraints of conscience getting in the way. The bottom line being in all of these is that sex is expected to be freely available, all of the time, anywhere, with anyone, without guilt, consequences or having to wait for it. And when it is not, it breeds resentment, anger and entitlement, because something that everyone else is getting freely is being 'denied' to them, it is as if they are being denied a basic right.
      seriously, the only people saying that sex should be freely available every time, everywhere, and with every person are incels and that's just toxic entitlement.
      PM me about the LGBTA+ discord server | #WontBeErased

      gender of the moment: | pronouns: it/its