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    Everything you dislike about game canon
    • Ganon Vader wrote:

      1. The Triforce isn't that powerful

      Not likely- even in ALttP, the thing is touted as being functionally omnipotent, so if sacrificing seven maidens descended from the original jailers could get him out, a wish should do so nicely.

      2. He got Agahnim into the Light World the same way he got his malice into the Light World during the Seal War

      Either during or after the seal was cast that closed off the connection between the worlds? At which point Aghanim settled in and twiddled his thumbs for a couple centuries, before moving against the king in earnest? With no one noticing him in the intervening years?

      3. The Sages probably created the Magic Mirror at some point after the Seal War

      I'm fond of a similar idea, that being that the Mirror (and possibly the Moon Pearl) were actually involved in casting the original seal. But that's headcanon- the game itself doesn't offer that explanation. The mirror is just kinda there, conveniently.
    • Setras wrote:


      I'm fond of a similar idea, that being that the Mirror (and possibly the Moon Pearl) were actually involved in casting the original seal. But that's headcanon- the game itself doesn't offer that explanation. The mirror is just kinda there, conveniently.
      The man who gives you the Mirror is the grandfather of the one the Maidens, so there's a good chance that he's descended from the Sages and that the Sages passed the Mirror down to their descendents with the intention that it would be given to the Hero. It's also clear that things were created and set up for a Hero. There's three dungeons that house Pendants and one of them has the Moon Pearl inside.
      "The (Star Wars) EU is a bloated, wretched mess."
      - Jedi Master Sagan
    • Surprised nobody's mentioned the Rito yet. Man, do they bother me.

      • Introduced in WW as fish people that evolved into bird people when Hyrule was covered in water...?
      • BotW just kind of farts them into existence with zero acknowledgement of how weird it is, or where they came from, or anything at all really. They look cool, but they make no sense and are probably the least fleshed out and most boring race in the game. It feels really lazy and tacked on.


      Also, the Zora in general from game to game are weirdly inconsistent. First they were monsters, then an enemy race, then a friendly race, then ALBW makes them enemies again, sort of. And Lord Jabu-Jabu is a pretty fishy character too. Sometimes he seems like basically just a normal, unintelligent whale creature, and then other times he's active and god-like. That's always mildly annoyed me.
      A dark chase requires a silent hound, and deep roots are not reached by the frost.
    • In general I don't like it how Nintendo continues to mess up the details.

      Like ALBW, which is supposed to be a sequel to ALttP. But it can't even get the amount of sages in the backstory right.

      Nintendo could just have 1 guy check all the story for inconsistencies, but they don't care.
      100% | Finished | Now playing:
      TLoZ | 2nd Q | TAoL | ALttP | LA | LA DX | OoT | OoT MQ | MM | OoA | OoS | ALttP (GBA) | FS | TWW | FSA | TMC | TP | LCT | PH | ST | OoT 3D | FS AE | SS | ALBW | MM 3D | TFH | TP HD | BotW
    • - That they named Ruto's race "Zoras" when that was already the name of a race that has nothing in common with Ruto's race besides its aquatic habitat.
      - The inconsistency over whether Octoroks are terrestrial or aquatic.
      - That Bongo Bongo was never established to have been the leader of the Dark Interlopers.
      "The (Star Wars) EU is a bloated, wretched mess."
      - Jedi Master Sagan
    • Setras wrote:

      HelmarocKing1999 wrote:

      I'm kind of okay with the MC/FS/FSA trilogy being a thing because it feels largely detached from the rest of the games and I can justify that it takes place in a time(line) or place removed from the rest of the games. I'm not okay with how its handled in the HH timeline, but honestly that timeline is a mess and I don't believe in the DT at all. But what really muddies the water for me is the appearance of the force gems in PH and ST. I have no idea what they're supposed to be related to, but they seem to most clearly reference the light force and I really don't like it. Where did they come from? Why are they only in those two titles? There's a part of me that believes the MC-FSA takes place in New Hyrule, which might explain some of this, but that has its own inconsistencies.
      Uh, I'm not trying to tell you how to feel, here, but I don't really get your reasoning. We're told and shown across all five of these games that Force is an energy that exists in all things, including life forms, and it can be crystallized into Gems. The inclusion of Force Gems in PH and ST seems much less like a "reference" to the Four Sword Saga and more a case of importing and expanding on a concept from them, which if anything would seem to strengthen their connection to the rest of the series. SS and BotW then seem to expand on the concept even further with Gratitude Crystals (which form and behave very similarly to how most Gems are generated in ST) and Malice.
      That's completely my mistake. Even for the number of times I've played PH especially, that plot point just completely escaped me at that particular moment.

      Honestly though this feeds into the point I made about BotW. After so many games, the details all start to blur and it's become incredibly difficult to form a theory without extensive research and rewatching of cutscenes. Some people are very good at that, and maybe it's due to a difference in commitment, but it's why I partly subscribe to the 'corrupted oral history' line of reasoning. My theories come in pretty broad strokes nowadays because so many tiny comments are made in-game and in relevant books that I don't believe it can all be taken literally anymore.

      The Rito bother me too. I love them (the WW races are some of my favourites in the series) but their inclusion in BotW is bizarre. The Korok I can get my head around - I quite like the idea that they are the true form of the Kokiri, who took human form just for OoT so that Link would fit in - but the Rito and the Zora being in the same game with no explanation hurts my head.
      "Know that you are worthy of love and so much more. Today, tomorrow and always, keep your head up"
      - Something someone said to me once that will stick with me always
    • I hate practically every plot point introduced in Skyward Sword. Demise, Hylia, the Master Sword's origin, all of it is terrible. I also hate the way A Link Between Worlds established the Triforce as something that actively sustains Hyrule.


      gamtos wrote:

      I intensely dislike that Wind Waker Link got his costume for "coming of age".

      The boy looks 13 at best. The art style has nothing to do with that, he still looks like an absolute spud compared to every adult. And compared to the statue of the Hero of Time.

      So what kind of messed up age system does Outset Island have?
      This is not inconsistent with a number of real-world religions, including Judaism and Shinto.
      "But I don't want comfort. I want God, I want poetry, I want real danger, I want freedom, I want goodness. I want sin."
      "In fact," said Mustapha Mond, "you're claiming the right to be unhappy."
      "All right then," said the Savage defiantly, "I'm claiming the right to be unhappy."
      "Not to mention the right to grow old and ugly and impotent; the right to have syphilis and cancer; the right to have too little to eat; the right to be lousy; the right to live in constant apprehension of what may happen to-morrow; the right to catch typhoid; the right to be tortured by unspeakable pains of every kind." There was a long silence.
      "I claim them all," said the Savage at last.
      Mustapha Mond shrugged his shoulders. "You're welcome," he said.

      —Aldous Huxley, Brave New World

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Vulpes ().

    • Most of my gripes have already been commented on. Overall, I don't like how Nintendo has treated the lore of the series. I can understand how it started as an afterthought, but now they have over 20 games in the series and have had plenty of time to really cement down a few key details that are passed from game to game. For instance, in SS Zelda was the reincarnation of Hylia. Ok, cool. Fast forward to BoTW, it isn't clearly defined what relation Zelda has to Hylia, and may not be a reincarnation at all. Another, the Rito were implied to have evolved from the Zora in WW, which is why (except for one spirit) they are not present in the game. Oh, but in BoTW they're both just races that are there. In ALttP all the sage descendants were Hylians or at the very least humans, but in ALBW "lol let's make one a fish!"...

      I mean they don't treat the lore in a way that has consistency with the rest of the games. Instead they pick certain things that seem cool for the scenario then make up the rest. It's becoming more apparent now that they're embracing the lore of the series more with recent games (which I'm entirely in favor of) but they need to have that one guy in the room that counters every suggestion with "but does this make sense in the series?".
      It's a shame to ruin such a beautiful morning by being awake

      -Bill Watterson
    • I wish they either:

      - said from the beginning that some games are connected to each other, but there's no overall timeline
      - wrote the games to be consistent with each other

      When Aonuma was first asked about the timeline in 2004, he could have said, "Seal War-ALTTP/OOX/LA-LOZ/AOL is one continuity, OOT, MM, and TWW are a second continuity, and TMC-FS/FSA is a third continuity", but instead he said, "There's a secret timeline".
      "The (Star Wars) EU is a bloated, wretched mess."
      - Jedi Master Sagan
    • Regarding the Sages, I always thought that the "descendants" in the DT could have been inheritors of the power of the Sages, like how the OoT ones are implied to be to the Ancient Sages (except Rauru, who is an Ancient Sage), without a blood connection being necessary. I wish someone would confirm "descendant" to be a translation error or something. That way, Sages of different races could be a thing without screwing things up so badly.

      Anyway, as for a starting list of my other annoyances with canon as it now seems to be (and it seems to change with every friggin' game ...)

      • Hylia as a "goddess" annoys me to no end. Din, Farore and Nayru were a perfectly adequate mythology all on their own. Shifting the prominence away from them and onto some new goddess with no explanation as to why is idiotic with regards to keeping any kind of consistency in the series. Either firmly establish Hylia's relation to the Three as subordinate, or come up with some sort of story to explain her sudden prominence in the mythology.
      • The 10 000 year gap supposedly between Calamity Ganon's last appearance and 100 years before BotW is much too long to be even remotely believable. We're supposed to just buy a place being in medieval statis for as long as the entirety of Western Civilization in our world? And believe that all the previous games took place sometime before even then? Doesn't Nintendo have even one story editor to tell them what a stupid idea that was? I swear, some idiot in the office tacked an extra zero onto the end of a much more believable timespan of 1000 years, and instead of fixing it, they just went with it.
      • Remove FS and FSA at least from the official canon, or make them their own, separate timeline. FS was an add on extra that needed friends with the same game, same handheld and link cables to even play. FSA needed the same, plus a gamecube! A much smaller audience thus would have played these games than the ones for the main series games, so they should not have been given prominence in the timeline at all IMO. MC and maybe the Oracle Games could be included in the "FS Timeline" as well.
      • BotW should have had waaaayyy more lore! I've said it before, but this easily could have been a feature added to the Hyrule Compendium, enabling you to scan things and actually learn significant things about the world, without taking away from the exploration aspect of the game. It would be optional, skippable for players who didn't care, but there for those who did. So much could have been added with just optional text! No extra programming required! Just imagination and words! Frankly, there's no excuse why they didn't do this!


      BotW Zelda in her purple Hylian Gear, by my husband, D4rkSilver
    • Violetlight wrote:


      • Hylia as a "goddess" annoys me to no end. Din, Farore and Nayru were a perfectly adequate mythology all on their own. Shifting the prominence away from them and onto some new goddess with no explanation as to why is idiotic with regards to keeping any kind of consistency in the series. Either firmly establish Hylia's relation to the Three as subordinate, or come up with some sort of story to explain her sudden prominence in the mythology.


      Again, not trying to tell anybody how to feel here- whether or not you like a given detail and why will depend entirely on personal sentiment- but we've seen non-GG gods in Hyrule's pantheon before (Zephos and Cyclos in WW immediately spring to mind), and the Hylians and their powers have been established from the get-go to be oddities relative to the rest of the humans. Hylia's presence and relation to them is consistent on both fronts. Likewise, the Triforce was created by the GG's, while Hylia was merely its protector and, based on her speech to Link right before entombing herself, had clearly not been given many details about the Triforce's actual function and may never have ever even met the "old gods" at all. That on its own seems quite handily to establish a level of subservience or at least "otherness" relative to the GG's.

      • Remove FS and FSA at least from the official canon, or make them their own, separate timeline. FS was an add on extra that needed friends with the same game, same handheld and link cables to even play. FSA needed the same, plus a gamecube! A much smaller audience thus would have played these games than the ones for the main series games, so they should not have been given prominence in the timeline at all IMO. MC and maybe the Oracle Games could be included in the "FS Timeline" as well.

      I still really don't get what's so inherently bad about these games or why they necessarily need to be expelled from the canon, especially again with PH and ST (and arguably other entries) borrowing so heavily from their ruleset and expanding on those concepts. Again, personal opinion, I get and respect that, but it's an opinion that always confuses me.

      • BotW should have had waaaayyy more lore! I've said it before, but this easily could have been a feature added to the Hyrule Compendium, enabling you to scan things and actually learn significant things about the world, without taking away from the exploration aspect of the game. It would be optional, skippable for players who didn't care, but there for those who did. So much could have been added with just optional text! No extra programming required! Just imagination and words! Frankly, there's no excuse why they didn't do this!

      I actually just finished a playthrough of Skyrim on the Switch, and after once again seeing that game's approach to lore and how well it's integrated into the world and the gameplay, yeah, BotW is even more bitter of a pill to swallow in the lore department. So haphazard and bare bones...
      Black Velvet Inferno

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Setras ().

    • Violetlight wrote:

      Hylia as a "goddess" annoys me to no end. Din, Farore and Nayru were a perfectly adequate mythology all on their own. Shifting the prominence away from them and onto some new goddess with no explanation as to why is idiotic with regards to keeping any kind of consistency in the series. Either firmly establish Hylia's relation to the Three as subordinate, or come up with some sort of story to explain her sudden prominence in the mythology.
      This also irks me with Zelda being the wielder of the Triforce of Wisdom in many games. Hylia sounds like a middle-of-the-trifecta kind of character, but both she and Nayru have Zelda as a "champion", so to speak.
    • Setras wrote:

      Again, not trying to tell anybody how to feel here- whether or not you like a given detail and why will depend entirely on personal sentiment- but we've seen non-GG gods in Hyrule's pantheon before (Zephos and Cyclos in WW immediately spring to mind), and the Hylians and their powers have been established from the get-go to be oddities relative to the rest of the humans. Hylia's presence and relation to them is consistent on both fronts. Likewise, the Triforce was created by the GG's, while Hylia was merely its protector and, based on her speech to Link right before entombing herself, had clearly not been given many details about the Triforce's actual function and may never have ever even met the "old gods" at all. That on its own seems quite handily to establish a level of subservience or at least "otherness" relative to the GG's.
      The other deities in the games - i.e. the Great Deku Tree, Jabu Jabu, the WW Wind gods, etc. aren't shoved down our collective throats the way Hylia is. No other deity has her statues where they make no logical sense to be (like the other races' towns), or is literally shown crushing the big bad, when the GGs were shown to be relatively neutral regarding the holders of the Triforce Pieces. It's as abrupt a change as Akhenaten replacing the entire Egyptian pantheon with his one Solar Disc god, and just as unnecessary.

      As for the FS series, it introduced important lore points, like there being a second Ganondorf when before he was established to always be the same guy, across timelines, in a game with a much smaller fanbase than the others for reasons I stated in my last post. Removing them from the main canon means that these lore points could likewise be dismissed, or at least relegated to their own separate line from the main lore. Why make theorists and fans jump through hoops to learn important lore points? Not to mention, FSA makes absolutely no sense as the end of the CT. It literally has nothing to do with MM or TP, so why make that arbitrary placement?

      I think what the Zelda series needs most of all is a dedicated lore editor. Make it somebody's job at Nintendo to keep track of this stuff! When the developers forget or want to change important lore points, have him or her tell them of any inconsistancies ahead of time, so the final product won't be so much of a mess!

      Think of The Lord of the Rings, for example. We'd be understandably pissed as readers for Hobbits to have been established as short little hairy footed people in The Hobbit, only for Frodo to be introduced as an 8-foot tall, shiny bird person in The Fellowship of the Ring. Book series and most quality tv and film series take care to keep things consistent within their internal lore. Why should video games be held to such a lower standard?


      BotW Zelda in her purple Hylian Gear, by my husband, D4rkSilver

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Violetlight ().

    • Regarding the inconsistencies, Zelda is a mirror to Warhammer 40k. Each story is canon, but in-universe treated as propaganda by the different factions.
      Heck, the introduction of oral corruption from SS can be applied to all games.
      Each game we experience, is but a retelling of the hylians, who themselves do not know the true chronology of events anymore.
    • ^
      Except there is a set timeline in the series and different events occur in chronological order from one another. This isn't a retelling, each game is it's own event and own place in time, even BoTW vaguely mentions three other Zelda games.

      The inconsistencies come from the fact that Nintendo never intended to make such a big universe and lore from the start, and only really started taking it seriously very recently. Since then they've been stumbling to stay consistent with certain details. I think it'll get there one day, just they need to set the foundation straight.
      It's a shame to ruin such a beautiful morning by being awake

      -Bill Watterson
    • To me a big problem seems to be that Nintendo is divided internally about whether or not to take the lore seriously. I think Miyamoto doesn't care at all, he's mostly just concerned about whether it's fun or not. Aonuma seems to waffle, sometimes acting like he cares, sometimes acting like it's not a priority. I'd wager that there's a split on the Zelda team between people trying to push consistent lore and those resistant to that. That's the impression I get, anyway.
      A dark chase requires a silent hound, and deep roots are not reached by the frost.