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    Master Ideas! Wishes/Wants/Ideas for Future Zelda titles
    • Miles wrote:

      And yet, they were distinguishing features of their games, with puzzles and boss fights built around them. And Zelda II was 90% sidescroller.
      Benefit from being a sidescroller? You mean like how Metroid, Castlevania, and Shantae benefit from being sidescrollers? Tightness of gameplay. Level flow. Enemy and obstacle design. Simple fun factor for people who actually like sidescrollers, like me. Not to mention sheer novelty after years of topdown and 3D. For Mario and Metroid, a sidescroller is no big deal. For Zelda, a new dedicated sidescrolling title would be headline-worthy because it's such a change of pace for the series.

      Platforming elements? What, you mean jumping, moving platforms, hazardous pits you can fall into, tools you can use to get around more effectively - stuff Zelda is known for?

      How does sidescrolling go against the fundamental nature of the series!? It's a design tool! A sidescrolling Zelda is no less an adventure full of exploration, combat, and puzzle solving than a Zelda that's top down or 3D! You're just designing around a different axis!

      Deprive you of a Zelda you'd enjoy more? No, I'm fine with you getting Zeldas you want. Chances are they're Zeldas I would enjoy, too, because they'd be like Zeldas I've enjoyed in the past. I just want to see a sidescrolling Zelda in addition to those titles. The pool of games I'd like to see is simply bigger than yours, here.

      Using your attitude, I could say you can just go play the multitude of topdown and sidescrolling Zeldas that already exist. Why do sidescrolling fans have to miss out for "just another" topdown or 3D Zelda? Because you think that's what's fundamental to the series

      What makes Zelda different from Metroid and other sidescrollers is its setting and characters, just like how Metroid Prime is different from Halo and other FPSes, especially of the sci-fi creative genre. Zelda practically is already a Metroidvania series, because it operates on many of the same principles as a Metroidvania: Explore around, fight enemies, find items that function as upgrades.

      Considering all video games are at the most basic mechanical level a bunch of squares bumping into each other, the creative elements are what really set game series apart. What made Zelda II a black sheep wasn't so much what it had as what it was missing. Zelda II was missing weapons like the Bow and Bombs, as well as Hearts, Rupees and stores. Had those elements been retained, it would have gone a long way towards making Zelda II feel more like Zelda. Meanwhile, Zelda II's most significant additions, more sophisticated swordfighting and the magic meter and spells, proved to be popular additions, as they went on to become series staples (the Medallions, Goddess spells, Magic Armor, and Champion powers all could be considered successors to Zelda II's spells).

      A sidescrolling Zelda still has Hyrule and its races, still has all the trappings that make Zelda great. We just get to experience them in a different way. And I personally think sidescrolling would make a fine addition to topdown and 3D as another format the Zelda series can tackle.
      I can guarantee I think about Link's Awakening a lot more than you do, and the sidescrolling parts rarely occur to me as more than "that was weird". In a list of the most distinct things about Link's Awakening, sidescrolling sections wouldn't even make the top 10.

      See, when you say the Zelda series is known for jumping, I have a hard time taking your arguments seriously. In most of the games you can't really even jump on command. And besides, platform games are known for using those things as a major, skill-based portion of the game. I would not call moving the character a major factor in the difficulty in any Zelda game. Like I said, the exploration in a sidescrolling game is fundamentally different from that in a top-down or three-dimensional game. In a sidescroller, there's less room to put secrets or truly hide them, less opportunity to make seemingly "empty" areas, less sense of space.

      You can't just say "in addition to" as if Zelda games fall out of the sky into Nintendo's backyard. If you get a sidescrolling Zelda, I am necessarily getting one less "real" Zelda.

      And just like there must be more than the setting of Zelda to distinguish it from Metroidvanias, there's more than the setting to distinguish Metroid Prime from Halo. Seriously, have you played those games? They play nothing alike.
      "But I don't want comfort. I want God, I want poetry, I want real danger, I want freedom, I want goodness. I want sin."
      "In fact," said Mustapha Mond, "you're claiming the right to be unhappy."
      "All right then," said the Savage defiantly, "I'm claiming the right to be unhappy."
      "Not to mention the right to grow old and ugly and impotent; the right to have syphilis and cancer; the right to have too little to eat; the right to be lousy; the right to live in constant apprehension of what may happen to-morrow; the right to catch typhoid; the right to be tortured by unspeakable pains of every kind." There was a long silence.
      "I claim them all," said the Savage at last.
      Mustapha Mond shrugged his shoulders. "You're welcome," he said.

      —Aldous Huxley, Brave New World

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Vulpes ().

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      Vulpes wrote:

      I can guarantee I think about Link's Awakening a lot more than you do, and the sidescrolling parts rarely occur to me as more than "that was weird". In a list of the most distinct things about Link's Awakening, sidescrolling sections wouldn't even make the top 10.
      See, when you say the Zelda series is known for jumping, I have a hard time taking your arguments seriously. In most of the games you can't really even jump on command. And besides, platform games are known for using those things as a major, skill-based portion of the game. I would not call moving the character a major factor in the difficulty in any Zelda game. Like I said, the exploration in a sidescrolling game is fundamentally different from that in a top-down or three-dimensional game. In a sidescroller, there's less room to put secrets or truly hide them, less opportunity to make seemingly "empty" areas, less sense of space.

      You can't just say "in addition to" as if Zelda games fall out of the sky into Nintendo's backyard. If you get a sidescrolling Zelda, I am necessarily getting one less "real" Zelda.

      And just like there must be more than the setting of Zelda to distinguish it from Metroidvanias, there's more than the setting to distinguish Metroid Prime from Halo. Seriously, have you played those games? They play nothing alike.
      Oh? You can peer into my mind and see what I think about? FYI, I played LA back in the day. I was a kid with a Game Boy, and soon after a Game Boy Color. I played the Color Dungeon. I found all twenty Seashells, without a guide. I know my LA. No point in trying to pull weight there, it really doesn't affect the validity of our points one way or the other.

      You're substituting facts for opinions here. It is your opinion that those segments were weird. I see them as an evolution of the "sidescrolling" in Zelda 1. And like it or not, it is a fact they were a prolific part of the game between the tunnels you explore, the bosses you fought, talking to Mambo, and the Fishing Minigame. They were prolific enough that any game reviewer worth their subscription count brings them up when discussing the game.

      Zelda II = Manual jumping and Jump spell
      ALttP = Automatic jumping down ledges
      LA and Oracles = Roc's Feather
      OoS and TMC = Roc's Cape
      ALBW = Tornado Rod
      3D Zeldas = automatic jumping off ledges, side jumping, Jump Attack, and finishing blows in TP and SS
      BotW = Jumping, gliding, and Revali's Gale

      Link's no stranger to acrobatic maneuvers. And how about the Kirby series? Is that one known for its tricky jumps? And a dedicated sidescrolling Zelda can work tricky jumps into its gameplay just like Metroid or Castlevania have. Samus has a Grapple Beam, Simon has a whip, Link has a Hookshot (and sometimes also a whip).

      How is the exploration "fundamentally different"? What, moving left and right, climbing, jumping, blowing up breakable walls, pressing switches, finding hidden doors, grabbing items? Again, an easy transition between topdown/3D and sidescrolling.

      How many places do you need to hide items? Metroid games manage to tuck dozens of neat secrets away in their environments. Too many becomes clutter. Do we really need another 900 Korok quest? 100 Skulltulas worked fine. And that would be perfectly feasible in a sidescroller. I'll take quality over quantity, thanks.

      A sidescrolling Zelda would be a "real" Zelda. And quite frankly, there are penty of topdown/3D Zeldas already. It won't kill anybody to have one sidescrolling Zelda, especially if it's a side project developed by, I dunno, Capcom or WayForward, companies with experience making sidescrolling games. I would especially love to see WayFoward take a swing at the series. Maybe even do a crossover! After all, if alternate realms like Termina and Lorule can exist, and Zelda's own world can beget lands like Hytopia, then a portal to Sequin Land seems perfectly plausible.


      Look, at the end of the day I'm just trying to have fun. You and I are not going to budge on our respective attitudes, we have nothing to gain from prolonging this debate, and we stand to waste a lot of time on it, more than we already have. For the forum's sake, let's agree to disagree and move on.
    • Miles wrote:

      I wouldn't require players to backtrack with items all that often. Maybe the area surrounding a particular dungeon opens up more once you have that dungeon's item (say, ice walls in an ice cavern you can melt once you've found the Fire Rod in the local dungeon), but I wouldn't want players having to backtrack to every last cave and corner of Hyrule every time they get a new item just to make sure they aren't missing anything.

      Considering how small Hyrule is in TLOZ and ALttP, you can always design it similar to Sequin Land in the original Shantae. I'd have "routes" traveling in compass directions. The map rotates to show your current orientation, and Link's icon has a red arrow indicating north from his current position; if you're on a West-East route, the map will be north-side up, and the red arow will be above Link. If you're on a North-South route, the map will be east-side up, and the red arrow will be pointing to Link's left.
      I was specifically only referring to backtracking inside the dungeons (meaning you'd have to sacrifice some level of freedom of exploration and do them in a more linear fashion as is the norm in the majority of the series), but going back around the overworld for a cave or whatever that is inaccessible initially isn't such a big hassle (and warping will downplay a lot of the tedium). I didn't mind the amount of such in Twilight Princess, my absolute favorite Zelda of them all, but even it had that one weirdly out of place chest in the Goron Mines where you had to come back with the Clawshot to get it. Just none of that kind of thing, and it's all good.

      One thing I forgot to mention before now that we're talking more about platforming and jumping, any new side-scrollers would HAVE to integrate a four action button control scheme. Having to switch out items in the previous games where you can only have two active at a time (even worse when you factor in using key items that are only good for one use) was hair-pullingly frustrating so maybe having one of the top buttons be a dedicated shield button and being able to permanently assign one button as the jump and the three others can be freely switched out would help a ton. Maybe if the upper right button does shield, and the upper left can switch between things like your footwear? That way you can instantly swap out normal boots for Iron Boots and whatnot. If they streamlined the hell out of it, that would definitely be a plus for returning the series to a previously not-so-fondly-remembered formula.

      Come to think of it, this would be an awesome, low-tech way to implement a lot of my new item ideas. The Void Shield would be easy to put in, as something to suck up any objects that the normal shield can't protect against or the Mirror Shield can't reflect. Or the Chain Whip, which can string up enemies and let them either be used as a substitute weight to put on a switch or used as a projectile. I am debating whether or not the Deku Staff would be worth it for both being a torch and pole vault, or if there should just be a pair of boots that lets you do a Double Jump. That would probably make it possible to have more variety in how the bosses move and attack, if Link was able to have more jumping mobility.

      About having side-scrolling but with the ability to move through screens a la moving through doors in things such as the Mario games, I might say to restrict that somewhat if only for the sake of being able to easily map out things, particularly in the dungeons. As long as there was a streamlined way of mapping out areas where you can go in and out of 'doors' along the otherwise side-scrolling field, that would be fine with me. It might make things a little difficult to have multiple floors in that way just because everything would be rotating constantly to accommodate the forward-backward and door up/door down movement but with adequate maps I'd be willing to give it a go. I bet someone could make a pretty neat fan game using this system, probably way less difficult than something that simulates one of the fully top-down games.
    • Miles wrote:

      -make heads roll? :P

      How about a game or series of games set in lands beyond Hyrule? I'm thinking Link and Zelda on an emissary mission to help their neighboring kingdoms.
      It's definitely a welcome idea to have completely different lands like Holodrum, Labrynna and Termina rather than yet another rehash of Hyrule and its recurring landmarks. Let's see another new, 3D one we can get lost in without familiar places like Death Mountain and Hyrule Castle and whatnot.