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    • Nintendo
    Super Smash Bros. Official Discussion Thread: EVERYONE IS HERE
    • Maintaining a roster of 72 characters is really quite the task. Gameplay-wise there are only so many niches you can possibly fill, even accounting for very different demands from players at different skill levels, and eventually you're going to start overfilling slots and creating situations where you have "worse versions of better characters".

      I don't mean in the sense of having a pair of echoes with one having slight competitive advantages to recommend them. I mean that if I go looking for a character that rewards me for whatever my best tools as a player are (good fundamentals with the controller, good spacing, good prediction/reads, good macro-management of some resource, good combo/punish execution, precise timings, variable thinking/pattern breaking/unpredictability, general fearlessness, whatever) I'm going to find more than one option and one is going to be obviously better.

      At the level I'm playing at, K. Rool seems like a strictly worse version of Ganon. Both characters are controlling a middling range directly in front of them by employing a high-priority offensive kit that comes with built-in defense... but Ganon's offense is just straight up more robust because his side B grabs and leads into true combos. I feel like I have far fewer "lives" against Ganon, with my flubs at low percent leading to more damning punishes and my flubs at high percent to more confirmable kills. Neither character lands well, but at least when Ganon *does* manage to stick a down-b landing it's big game.

      I have no idea if these are the sort of disparities that carry over into high level competitive play and result in K. Rool being generally ranked lower in the Tier lists I see than Ganon. Or even if this applies to other players at my skill level. But assuming my own experience generalizes in some way, I think it does point to an inherent issue with a large roster: even given preferences for different aspects technical play you're going to start seeing certain choices be unjustifiable.

      And this is why style is a huuuuge deal, and why I agree that Nintendo should be commended for the characters they're putting out now that they're four score fighters in. Even if K. Rool is bad among similar heavies, even if Pirahna Plant is just a collection of silly gimmicks, even if Isabelle is a strictly worse echo of an already very medium character the feel of each of these builds - in the conception of their moves, their animations, K. Rool's amazing theme and Isabelle's authentic Gucci outfits - is just really really well done.
      ~~~
      Although postsocratics like St. Augustine and Judith Butler explored a diverse set of ethical and metaphysical ideas, their unifying feature as a movement was a principled refusal to speculate upon which of the four elements the world was made out of.
      ~~~


      boxes is the best human and I am going to get her a kitten or 2 kittens
    • Really?

      On the democratic judgement side, Reddit's amalgamation of ~2700 January tier lists released this week has Ganondorf close-to-but-comfortably-above above K. Rool. Likewise an amalgamation of January tournament data collected at Smashboards has Ganondorf close to but ultimately above K. Rool.

      Distilling pro opinion is tougher. The most recently newsworthy profession-generated tier list seems to by the one Leffen released two days ago and therein he lists K. Rool as "the worst heavy besides Charizard". Going back to the most recent aggregation of pro tier lists I can find, this one from mid January, shows K. Rool ranked even with- or below Ganondorf in every case.

      I definitely see evidence that K. Rool was previously ranked more highly. K. Rool was ranked as high tier in reddit's December list (Ganon in mid) and on the long-term aggregate list at eventhubs K. Rool is still ranked higher than Ganon but also has the 2nd largest point drop over the course of the past month (behind Little Mac, at the bottom of the list). In the current reddit data K. Rool has one of the highest variances in rank, with more high tier votes and (many) more low tier votes than his new neighbors.

      This sort of volatility makes sense for a new character, especially one with an attractive aesthetic, but that's all the more reason to bias towards new data. If votes for K. Rool as high tier continue to decay through February the way they did through January he will continue to lose ground to Ganon and other stably ranked mid-tier characters.
      ~~~
      Although postsocratics like St. Augustine and Judith Butler explored a diverse set of ethical and metaphysical ideas, their unifying feature as a movement was a principled refusal to speculate upon which of the four elements the world was made out of.
      ~~~


      boxes is the best human and I am going to get her a kitten or 2 kittens

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Foo ().

    • Eh, at Event Hubs, for example, Ganondorf still hasn't gained ground over the course of the last month. In fact, he's lost a smidgen. King K. Rool's drop in recent days can be attributed in large part to the nerfs he received with the late January update. Despite those, Ganondorf still lags behind K. Rool in their rankings.

      Staying with the same community, Ganondorf's favorable matchups remain few in number, and his unfavorable matchups numerous. Neither are seeing notable improvement.

      One that has improved dramatically is his matchup with K. Rool, though. What we might end up having is a case where, against the rest of the roster, K. Rool would be the better choice more often, but against one another, Ganondorf has the edge of K. Rool. We're still just scratching the surface of the game, so there is lots to discover.

      I'm published! Check out -
      THE LEGEND OF LIGHT
      Book One, The Echoes of Light, available in Paperback and on Kindle - Book 2 out late 2018
      Read the first five chapters for free
    • EventHub's data are incredibly sticky. The value of a vote doesn't decay over time, but the volume of votes certainly does. The number of votes cast today is 0.2% of the total vote count even though that same 24 hour period is 1.3% of the game's life. The standing positions at EventHub aren't just an average of opinions held over the course of months, they're an average of opinions held over months with a weighted bias towards the earliest opinions.

      We would, of course, actually want the opposite. Not only because understanding of the game improves over time but because the game itself changes over time. Given that the game is actively being patched, the absolute totals are pretty much junk data.

      Speaking of the patch, given that it released on January 30th it effected none of the data cited above except Leffen's list. Opinion of K. Rool had clearly decayed prior to the patch's release and if you believe it put further downward pressure on K. Rool then you should predict that there will be an even greater fall for him in future lists, barring some revolution in the community's approach to the character.
      ~~~
      Although postsocratics like St. Augustine and Judith Butler explored a diverse set of ethical and metaphysical ideas, their unifying feature as a movement was a principled refusal to speculate upon which of the four elements the world was made out of.
      ~~~


      boxes is the best human and I am going to get her a kitten or 2 kittens

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Foo ().

    • I think we're talking about two different things.

      There's the case of King K. Rool slipping in competitive rankings.

      Then there's the case of how he ranks in relation to Ganondorf.

      No dispute on the former, but the latter isn't settled. Reason being that, despite King K. Rool's descent, Ganondorf hasn't exactly made definite leaps. In some rankings, he's actually dropped a bit from where he started.

      I'm published! Check out -
      THE LEGEND OF LIGHT
      Book One, The Echoes of Light, available in Paperback and on Kindle - Book 2 out late 2018
      Read the first five chapters for free
    • Yeah I should've figured cross referencing the first few top google searches was way too lazy work.

      Ah well, I'm rubbish at tiers either way ^^" I don't play anywhere near that skill level.

      Fun to see the community is looking for pro opinions and Leffen just pulls out this big dumptier of "characters I don't fucking care about".

      The post was edited 1 time, last by gamtos ().

    • Speaking of characters he doesn't fucking care about, I really need to stop the impulse of using Arcfire on neutral blindly when things start looking very grim playing Robin because it almost never works and only gets me killed, sure if the opponent is an idiot or messes up big time it's easy 40-45% damage or a stock off if he was already very damaged (the Arcfire > Arcfire > practically any aerial combo) but the minuscule chance of that happening is not worth going from 30% to 100% myself without getting a single goddamn hit in.

      And despite knowing this I still keep doing that shit, stupid habit.

      That aside anyone knows some general matchup advice against Kirby, Olimar or Megaman? I seriously don't know how the heck should I play against those since no one on my regular group used them (except Olimar for trolling once every 100 matches or so, no real reason for me to learn much about it back then).

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Jackos ().

    • I haven't played a ton of the match-up from the Olimar side, but some general thoughts:

      *As Olimar, I'm always trying to bait opponents - especially low percent opponents - into slow patience games. I'll give up middle stage control or even, in some extreme situations, throw myself off the stage entirely and play from the ledge because giving those sorts of positional advantages to people puts them in their head and gets them playing more carefully and at a slower pace. If someone just spent a game being rushed down by pichu or whatever and then comes to play me I want them to feel like they have all the room in the world to breathe. Slow, careful-paced play is the natural feeding ground of the latched pikman >>

      *Robin feels like they'd be particularly susceptible to this because they've got some range and some benefit to playing slow if trying to respawn depleted items. At the same time, Robin has more than usual reason to fear latches because appropriately colored pikman are going to win projectile wars through elemental immunity and be harder to shake. You can't let this happen.

      *If you're going to be more aggressive than feels right you're going to want a good set of safe on-shield approaches and mix-ups. Good spacing is, I think, way way more important than good damage for you. I play against some Lucinas whose approach kits are without a doubt bad expected value for them in terms of damage - especially at low percents - but space well and leave me with no ability to confirm kills. I wrack damage up crazy easily with lacthes and but still get owned in the big picture. I think this is about the approach you want.

      *Olimar probably fears nothing more than swordies underneath him. Robin guards the ledge well, from what I know, which means you're often going to force Olimar into the air with his up-b which in turn means a dangerous drop. Many options in the air, especially when there's no pikman at hand, leave Olimar falling - in an animation where his head is below his feet which results in a suuuuper laggy bounce when he hits the ground - and these can be punished crazy easily. To avoid this the plan for Olimar is either Nair -> Fast Fall or Whistle for super armor, and that's not much of a mixup. Holding on to pikman for Dairs in this spot helps against some characters, but most swordies have options against that and I'm guessing that includes Robin. This is where you get your punishes.

      ---

      Really enjoyed the tier list from Esam that just came out. I think the huge space between Marth and Lucina makes for an interesting conversation but I spent longer than I thought I would typing the above and now must sleep. Tomorrow!
      ~~~
      Although postsocratics like St. Augustine and Judith Butler explored a diverse set of ethical and metaphysical ideas, their unifying feature as a movement was a principled refusal to speculate upon which of the four elements the world was made out of.
      ~~~


      boxes is the best human and I am going to get her a kitten or 2 kittens
    • BackSet-Chan wrote:

      I look at that and start thinking of a million ways Kirby could smash Olimar to bits and then realize "wait, that would only work in Smash 4 where Kirby is a badass.
      Kirby's still garbage in smash 4. But that's OK. Kirby has some cheesy moves that are total garbage but easy for beginners to use, and multiple jumps. Like @Foo said, he feels like Kirby and is good for beginners and that's OK. But Kirby has like 2 good matchups, and Olimar is one of them, haha. Thought that was ironic.

      The other good Kirby matchup is Shulk, because Kirby with Monado Arts is arguably the best character in the game.

      I took a break from tournaments for a while but I'm going to my first Ultimate tournament today. Wish me luck!
    • Cajbaj wrote:

      BackSet-Chan wrote:

      I look at that and start thinking of a million ways Kirby could smash Olimar to bits and then realize "wait, that would only work in Smash 4 where Kirby is a badass.
      Kirby's still garbage in smash 4. But that's OK. Kirby has some cheesy moves that are total garbage but easy for beginners to use, and multiple jumps. Like @Foo said, he feels like Kirby and is good for beginners and that's OK. But Kirby has like 2 good matchups, and Olimar is one of them, haha. Thought that was ironic.
      The other good Kirby matchup is Shulk, because Kirby with Monado Arts is arguably the best character in the game.

      I took a break from tournaments for a while but I'm going to my first Ultimate tournament today. Wish me luck!
      Tell that to Ganondorf.

      Sig by TruEdge67, Glorious Newbie Overlord
    • Yeah, one way or another the Kirby/Olimar match-up hinges entirely on the "Do whatever it takes to not give the floof the best projectile in the game" angle.

      ---

      So, the ESAM tier list puts 25 spaces between Lucina and Marth. Other approaches treat them as the same character or, at the very most, split them into a pair with Lucina over Marth but no room in between. There's some argument over the approach in the comments on ESAM's vid and I think it opens up an interesting philosophical question about what tier lists are.

      Card games, not fighters, are my primary gaming hobby and in the MTG world there'd be essentially no argument against having Marth and Lucina separated by an entire tier, with room for well-populated fractional tiers in between. One of the most important pieces of advice in Magic is "don't play a worse version of a better deck" and tier lists incorporate that idea that. If your deck is not pareto optimal - if you could improve your win percentage in some match-up without sacrificing in another by switching to the better deck - then it's a tier two deck full stop. Even if it's 55% against the field in testing. It's a worse version of a better deck and you're silly to play it.

      Leffen explains a version of the same principle here. He is not placing Ness in the upper tiers not because he thinks Ness has a worse overall set of match-ups than some character who *do* rank in his upper tiers - Sheik is given as an example, of a character who may be worse overall than Ness but ranks - but because Ness is not pareto optimal. You can play another character (it's not clear which, in this case) and not want to switch from that character into Ness for *any* match-up. Ness is a "worse version of a better character" and so doesn't rank.

      (In his ranking of Marth and Lucina here Leffen explains that this principle *could* move Marth into the "characters I don't fucking care about tier" but he's holding out on the expectation that Marth tippers will "eventually" become more consistent and change the situation. Sure.)

      So let's assume, for the sake of argument, that Lucina is a strictly better character than Marth. That, for any other character in the game, switching from playing Marth to playing Lucina against that character will either keep your expected win rate exactly the same OR increase it. Marth is not pareto optimal because there's a move away from Marth which increases win percentage in some match-ups without harming any others.

      Let's further assume that there is no character strictly better than Kirby. Going with the current discussion, let's assume that for every other character either that character's Olimar match-up OR that character's Shulk match-up is worse that Kirby's against that character, so there is value to be gained by switching into Kirby against those chars.

      And finally, let's assume (rather safely I think) that on net Marth is advantaged in more individual match-ups and by greater margins when compared to Kirby; that Marth is a "better" character head-to-head.

      In this toy model who's higher tier, Marth or Kirby?

      Are tier ordered lists of characters from "best" to "worst" under tournament conditions OR are they guides to metagame choices where high tier choices play more and more important roles in the meta and lower tier characters - however good they might be in absolute terms - have smaller metagame roles?

      Again, based on my background in cardgames I naturally lean towards the latter but I think it's an interesting point of controversy for fighters with increasingly large rosters.
      ~~~
      Although postsocratics like St. Augustine and Judith Butler explored a diverse set of ethical and metaphysical ideas, their unifying feature as a movement was a principled refusal to speculate upon which of the four elements the world was made out of.
      ~~~


      boxes is the best human and I am going to get her a kitten or 2 kittens

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Foo ().

    • @BackSet-Chan Ganondorf is not a good matchup for Kirby, lol.

      Kirby has very little range in his moves, nor does he have the speed to weave in and out of attacks, and Ganondorf is not an opponent you want to get close and personal with as a lightweight. One back air or forward tilt from Ganondorf could spell trouble for Kirbs at very low percent.

      Warlock Punch is also a garbage move to absorb and Kirby's has even less range, so that doesn't help him in the matchup either.