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    Nintendo doesn't care about the timeline, and didn't consider it when writing BoTW
    • The timeline is official but that doesn't mean is not wrong or made out of the blue. Why can't we stand on a middle ground and say "hey the timeline is not all mighty but it's a fun addition even with its flaws"? Instead we either defend it or destroy it haha.

      I will provide you with an easy example of how the timeline can be so easily established but it doens't detract from the experience that the games give:

      BOTW is 10000 years after SS and 10000 years before the timeline split.

      Boom! Update the HH. Yet we act like it's a masterpiece of a plot, no it isn't, at least not the placement of the games, but that doesn't mean the timeline is wrong, it's just lazy and i wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo announce that as the updated timeline and i just made this up, yet in game it does make some sense.

      We sometimes take way too seriously the timeline.
      ...You know, the bad guy really does need to wear this face at the very end!


      "We are blind
      to the world within us
      waiting to be born"

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Hayato ().

    • Cajbaj wrote:

      john_marston wrote:

      really Nintendo? Isn't the whole point of a fantasy legend of good vs evil that good will always win?
      I mean, yeah, but having the hero in a video game canonically lose is kind of a neat idea. If every reset is a new timeline, we actually usually die more times than succeed. It's not really a thing in Zelda at all besides a hand wave though, so I can't exactly praise it.
      Bionicle of all things actually does the whole "good will always win" subversion better. Toa have their "destiny" and stuff and they have to protect people and defeat Makuta and all that, but Toa failing their destiny happens somewhat frequently. "Prophecies" and "destiny" in media are always like "yeah but it didn't happen like you thought it would! wuoaoAOOoh!" but in ol' Bonkles it's sometimes just like "well that didn't work at all". @Takanuva probably knows a lot more about this than me.

      Not to say that prophecies are bad or whatever. The Witch King's thing that no man could kill him and he gets killed by Éowyn was pretty neat for example.

      I'm rambling aren't I. My point is that those are neat concepts but the DT doesn't actually do anything interesting with them.
      Did someone mention Bonkles??

      In all seriousness, what drives good fiction is the struggle between good and evil. Just because a character has a destiny they are meant to fulfill doesn't mean they always succeed in fulfilling it. Oftentimes different factors may draw them apart and prevent them from doing so. An example of this is the Toa Empire alternate world setting (arguably, the Bionicle equivalent of the Decline Timeline) where the Makuta didn't fulfill his plans.

      The Toa Mangai of Metru Nui became corrupt, starting with Toa Tuyet after she murdered an innocent Matoran, dishonoring her destiny as a Toa and Protector. This set into events a decay of the entire world, as it fell into a totalitarian nightmare. Where Bionicle succeeded with this that Zelda seems to have failed is a solid, inorganic world.

      There seems to be a lack of a overarching focus or theme in the decline timeline. Sure, the separate games have their own villains, some of them larger than others. But there doesn't seem to be a consistent conflict. It doesn't have to be a villain. It can be a story concept, like Link dealing with the failings of himself as a hero, and how he copes with that. I'd like to see something like that tackled in the decline timeline.

      But one of its greatest successes and flaws is the lacking interconnectivity in the games. You slowly see Hyrule shrink and fall apart, until the barren wastelands and chaotic nature of LoZ and AoL, but it doesn't seem like there's any story attempt to combat that. If BotW is a decline timeline game, I like how it changes that. It reminds me a bit of Lord of the Rings, and the slow decay of Arda with the end of each era, and it's renewal at the start of each one. Even through the fading of Middle Earth, there is always a hope. A light. A new age.

      I'd like to see Nintendo tackle that in the future with Zelda, and have the flames of Hyrulian civilization rekindled, the building of a new kingdom be a central theme of the next game. That could provide a new overarching conflict for the timeline of trying to bring back Hyrule, and combating the dangers of the world. BotW is a fresh start for the timeline if so, and they could build from nothing. After AoL, it's a complete blank slate. I'd like to see Nintendo tackle making the Hyrule they want to make now, after all they've learned from BotW, and other developers. I wouldn't even mind if they discarded the timeline. All it does is limit creativity, plus part of the fun is guessing how games go together.
      I AM TAKANUVA, TOA OF LIGHT!

      You'll be hearing my name someday, whenever people talk about heroes - Takua!

    • Takanuva wrote:

      I wouldn't even mind if they discarded the timeline. All it does is limit creativity, plus part of the fun is guessing how games go together.

      This isn't meant to be a personal attack nor unduly harsh, so please forgive me if it comes across as either of those, but I am sick to death of this argument. The timeline in and of itself is just the games being put in a set order- nothing more, nothing less. It does restrict some things, but not in any way that really hampers anything, especially not with how Nintendo does it. For example, with the timeline set up as it currently is, Old Hyrule is buried by water in the AT and thus everything associated with it is gone, thus they can no longer sensibly use, say, the Master Sword without excessive retcons. Ultimately, no biggie, as we've seen with the Phantom and Lokomo Swords. If they suddenly decided to make an AT game with the Master Sword and couldn't be bothered to explain it, meanwhile, then that's 100% on them and I'd have to question why they'd be so married to that idea in the first place.

      Unless they are actively trying to go against the timeline they've set up or else are so absentminded that they don't pay any attention to it at all- neither of which are off the table, granted, but neither of which are a given- then they can still keep doing as they've been doing. All it takes is the bare minimum of effort on their part to ensure some degree of continuity, which they already give, and if they can't be bothered to do that, then they should just quit the pretense and stop giving the games stories at all.

      If anything is limiting their creativity, it's their unwillingness to put Ganon in time out for a while and let other villains and concepts breathe, and by extension to give the story a little more focus. Gameplay always does and always should come first, but this allergy they have toward the storytelling aspect of the games and their subsequent tendency to lean on the same basic formula time and again is putting them into a proverbial box way more than an overriding series chronology ever could.

      EDIT: And NB- the series is 30 years old, the timeline is only just about five years old, and four games- SS, ALBW, TFH, and BotW- have been released since it came out, with the latter in particular having been admitted to have not been made with the timeline in mind and the game as a whole even feeling like it's actively trolling timeline theorists. Can we please stop acting like the timeline was some kind of serious injury to the series that needs to be removed for its long-term health? It's doing just fine, and the timeline isn't doing it any harm by existing.
      "Lust... greed... sloth... gluttony... envy... wrath... pride. These are the seven deadly sins of man. In excess, any one of these will ruin a person- but one must understand all seven, if one is to understand humanity." -Von Hohenheim (FMA: Brotherhood)

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Setras ().

    • I honestly can't see the argument that timelines "limit creativity". Connecting games together adds the ability to have story elements that build on other games (WW's story is amazing in the context of being a sequel to OoT), and the "issue" of being constrained by the story is clearly not an issue for Nintendo, because you can always use the excuses of time and magic to get around any obstacle you might face.

      ninja'd

      Although I will say that Aonuma in particular really, really likes "the Cycle" of Link, Ganon, and Zelda -- he considers it much more than the timeline, certainly.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by logicalpencils ().

    • Creativity could be limited if the developers stick too much to the timelines which to me it doesn't happen because they must likely think about timeline placement after the game is done.

      By the way, direct sequels are okay, i think the problem is when they are obviously not sequels, or when they start playing around with the time splits, so if they made a direct sequel, say for example OOT - MM creativity is definitely expanded, however if they make TP with MM in mind there would be a lot of things that they would be restraint on doing, because they are thinking too much on a game that was made a long time ago and does not share that much in common, hence the reason creativity could be limited.
      ...You know, the bad guy really does need to wear this face at the very end!


      "We are blind
      to the world within us
      waiting to be born"

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Hayato ().

    • Hayato wrote:

      Creativity could be limited if the developers stick too much to the timelines which to me it doesn't happen because they must likely think about timeline placement after the game is done.

      By the way, direct sequels are okay, i think the problem is when they are obviously not sequels, or when they start playing around with the time splits, so if they made a direct sequel, say for example OOT - MM creativity is definitely expanded, however if they make TP with MM in mind there would be a lot of things that they would be restraint on doing, because they are thinking too much on a game that was made a long time ago and does not share that much in common, hence the reason creativity could be limited.

      Fun fact, TP was actually originally meant to be a WW sequel, to the point where a Wind Waker can still be found in the original game files of the GC and (I believe) Wii versions. The final product, meanwhile, features the Twili, who coincide nicely in many ways with the "ancient tribe" mentioned in MM, while the Fused Shadow is very similar to Majora's Mask, featuring several similar abilities and even a nearly-identical eye. The Hero's Shade, meanwhile, howls a couple songs that the Hero of Time knew (i.e. the Song of Healing and the Requiem of Spirit).

      Notice how all of these are background details that don't require that much thought (comparatively speaking) to be put in and don't conflict with the gameplay at all- quite the opposite, in fact?

      The timeline will never in and of itself hamper creativity- that's down to the writing staff and the writing staff alone, and if they botch it, it's on them, not the fact that a chronology exists. There's also very little danger of them ever focusing on chronological connections to the point that it messes up the gameplay, since that's the exact opposite of their design philosophy.
      "Lust... greed... sloth... gluttony... envy... wrath... pride. These are the seven deadly sins of man. In excess, any one of these will ruin a person- but one must understand all seven, if one is to understand humanity." -Von Hohenheim (FMA: Brotherhood)
    • Setras wrote:

      Hayato wrote:

      Creativity could be limited if the developers stick too much to the timelines which to me it doesn't happen because they must likely think about timeline placement after the game is done.

      By the way, direct sequels are okay, i think the problem is when they are obviously not sequels, or when they start playing around with the time splits, so if they made a direct sequel, say for example OOT - MM creativity is definitely expanded, however if they make TP with MM in mind there would be a lot of things that they would be restraint on doing, because they are thinking too much on a game that was made a long time ago and does not share that much in common, hence the reason creativity could be limited.
      Fun fact, TP was actually originally meant to be a WW sequel, to the point where a Wind Waker can still be found in the original game files of the GC and (I believe) Wii versions. The final product, meanwhile, features the Twili, who coincide nicely in many ways with the "ancient tribe" mentioned in MM, while the Fused Shadow is very similar to Majora's Mask, featuring several similar abilities and even a nearly-identical eye. The Hero's Shade, meanwhile, howls a couple songs that the Hero of Time knew (i.e. the Song of Healing and the Requiem of Spirit).

      Notice how all of these are background details that don't require that much thought (comparatively speaking) to be put in and don't conflict with the gameplay at all- quite the opposite, in fact?

      The timeline will never in and of itself hamper creativity- that's down to the writing staff and the writing staff alone, and if they botch it, it's on them, not the fact that a chronology exists. There's also very little danger of them ever focusing on chronological connections to the point that it messes up the gameplay, since that's the exact opposite of their design philosophy.
      I agree with everything you said (although some things could easily be easter eggs and references), especially your last paragraph, and in fact that's one of the reason i've been saying that the timeline is not that important yet at the same time adding little details and nods to previous games that we can see in game are better than using the whole timeline to guide them. Like i said earlier, they must likely have ideas of how the lore goes that they use here and there for every entry but they don't follow a strict timeline, rather they create new things and don't restrict themselves, and of course to me that's why the timeline itself doesn't hamper creativity but if they follow it too much it would most likely restrict them a lot, which in my opinion hasn't happened.
      ...You know, the bad guy really does need to wear this face at the very end!


      "We are blind
      to the world within us
      waiting to be born"

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Hayato ().

    • The timeline limits creativity because they can't do whatever the fuck they want with the new Zelda without clashing with it. It's like they'd have to ignore/disregard the timeline and piss off fans if they wanted to do so anyway....sounds familiar (BotW).

      The HH timeline doesn't have many benefits anymore. It was cool when it came out, especially with SS as the origin story. But ultimately, it doesn't really make sense to tie games like TWW, FSA, tAoL, and BotW together. And now Nintendo is in a position where they're expected to continue adding to the timeline, keeping it coherent, while they clearly don't want to/can't be arsed to (for now at least).

      I think the series worked better as 'legends', as that's what they are. Some of which being connected, others not (or up for speculation). It allows them to come up with a new legend the next game, and not have to tie it together with the old games.

      But ultimately this is like a debate of HH timeline loyalists vs people that aren't loyal to it.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by john_marston ().

    • I still think Nintendo is at fault rather than the fans. It messes with both pro-timeline and anti-timeline fans by sitting on the fence and leading them on.

      One moment they say the timeline is important by making it canon in Hyrule Historia.
      The next moment they throw it out the window with Breath of the Wild, and Aonuma says "It's not important to us".

      Pick one stance or the other, you can't be wishy washy with both Nintendo; it messes stuff up.
      "But courage need not be remembered... For it is never forgotten." ~Princess Zelda Hyrule XXXVIII

      The post was edited 1 time, last by HylianKnight ().

    • HylianKnight wrote:

      I still think Nintendo is at fault rather than the fans. It messes with both pro-timeline and anti-timeline fans by sitting on the fence and leading them on.

      One moment they say the timeline is important by making it canon in Hyrule Historia.
      The next moment they throw it out the window with Breath of the Wild, and Aonuma says "It's not important to us".

      Pick one stance or the other, you can't be wishy washy with both Nintendo; it messes stuff up.
      They also had several oppertunities before HH's release to deny that a timeline exists, and every time they said that there is a timeline. For example, Miyamoto could have denied the existence of a timline, yet he gave the interviewer the Miyamoto order, and there's this: angelfire.com/games5/makzelda/interviews/kiootcomments.html
      "The (Star Wars) EU is a bloated, wretched mess."
      - Jedi Master Sagan

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Ganon Vader ().

    • Ganon Vader wrote:

      HylianKnight wrote:

      I still think Nintendo is at fault rather than the fans. It messes with both pro-timeline and anti-timeline fans by sitting on the fence and leading them on.

      One moment they say the timeline is important by making it canon in Hyrule Historia.
      The next moment they throw it out the window with Breath of the Wild, and Aonuma says "It's not important to us".

      Pick one stance or the other, you can't be wishy washy with both Nintendo; it messes stuff up.
      They also had several oppertunities before HH's release to deny that a timeline exists, and every time they said that there is a timeline. For example, Miyamoto could have denied the existence of a timline, yet he gave the interviewer the Miyamoto order, and there's this: angelfire.com/games5/makzelda/interviews/kiootcomments.html
      The fact that you say that they also admit the opposite several times it's proof enough that they don't take the timeline that seriously and contradict themselves. You shouldn't take it that seriously neither because they also said that they don't care that much and so on and so forth.

      Again, the timeline exists, the timeline is real, but that doesn't mean it is perfect or that they plan it all with amazing foreshadowing.
      ...You know, the bad guy really does need to wear this face at the very end!


      "We are blind
      to the world within us
      waiting to be born"

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Hayato ().

    • If there was no timeline, here's what the series would look like:

      Continuity A: The Seal/Imprisoning War would occur as described in ALTTP and its manual, ALTTP and LA would occur with Link A, and LOZ and AOL would occur with Link B.

      Continuity B: Skyward Sword, OOT, the split, TWW, PH, and ST on the AT, MM and TP on the CT

      Continuity C: TMC-FS/FSA

      Miscellaneous games: OOX, ALBW, TFH, BOTW
      "The (Star Wars) EU is a bloated, wretched mess."
      - Jedi Master Sagan

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Ganon Vader ().

    • Ganon Vader wrote:

      If there was no timeline, here's what the series would look like:

      Continuity A: The Seal/Imprisoning War would occur as described in ALTTP and its manual, ALTTP and LA would occur with Link A, and LOZ and AOL would occur with Link B.

      Continuity B: Skyward Sword, OOT, the split, TWW, PH, and ST on the AT, MM and TP on the CT

      Continuity C: TMC-FS/FSA

      Miscellaneous games: OOX, ALBW, TFH, BOTW
      doesn't seem that bad. Of course that begs the question: Nintendo said that Botw takes place after OoT. Would they have said that if there was no timeline?
      In brightest day. In blackest night. No evil shall escape my sight. Let those who worship evils might. Beware my power GREEN LANTERNS LIGHT!!!