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    General Card Games Thread
    • Foo wrote:

      "Fair" mill decks - in the sense of decks that play like burn but attack the library incrementally instead of the lifetotal - are bad in every TCG. Bad conceptually.
      How are they bad conceptually? They are just using a win condition just like any other deck. Depending on the game, they can be better or worse. In YuGiOh, graveyard manipulation is intense for a very big amount of decks and as such milling only works if it's OTK, otherwise you are more often than not helping the opponent get his monsters right where he wants them.

      Anyway, I was actually incorrect about Open the Vaults, it's been ages since I played so yeah, it's actually an endless loop that gives you essentially infinite turns. I was confusing it with something else, which was indeed really inconsistent and bad, lol.
      "Can't post that on a Christian forum."

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Please Understand ().

    • Imagine you had a game where players had two different life pools - life pool A and life pool B - and 99% of cards allowed you to attack one life pool or the other but not both. You lose when /either/ life total is depleted.

      It would be incredibly stupid to build a deck that attacked both the A life total and th B life total. Drawing into a B attacker when your opponent is already near dead in A but healthy in B would be the worst feeling in the world.

      So there would be A strategies and B strategies and that would all be well and good, assuming that that game devs could keep them fairly competitive. No issues.

      But then let's say you want to design a card that allows a play to pay life for an effect.
      You can't let the player choose which pool they pay from. They'd just always pay from pool A when playing against a deck that attacked pool B and vice versa.

      So you specify, this card draws life from pool A. If the card is good, and sees play, decks that attack pool B are going to be worse. When you attack pool B your opponent can spend life out of pool A for free, getting all the benefits of the good card with none of the drawbacks.

      This, again, *can* be balanced by trying to have a bunch of good cards which draw from pool A and bunch which draw from pool B, but now your design is incredibly constrained. You need equally effective win cons in A and B, you need equally usable "pay life" effects in A and B, and you need to accomplish this in a way that doesn't devolve into rock-paper-scissors and suck all of the play skill out of the game.

      In practice, this isn't worth anyone's time. Just don't have the two pools to begin with. No TCG tries to do this.

      ---

      Playing incremental mill is an attempt to artificially turn your opponent's deck into their B life total. Concerns about opponents who might actually *want* to flip their deck into their discard pile aside, this runs smack into the wall that was built when the devs decides it was *life* and not cards-in-library that players would be paying for their effects.

      We see that the most played cards in modern magic are fetches and shocks. Further we see that there are no equivalent cards that let you remove the top 5 cards of your library to fetch or the top 10 cards of your library for quick access to two colours of mana. That's a conscious design choice on WotC's part and all other devs are priced into making similar choices, but the alternatives are untenable.

      When you decide to play mill instead of burn you are always going to immediately and immensely disadvantaged by this.
      ~~~
      Although postsocratics like St. Augustine and Judith Butler explored a diverse set of ethical and metaphysical ideas, their unifying feature as a movement was a principled refusal to speculate upon which of the four elements the world was made out of.
      ~~~


      boxes is the best human and I am going to get her a kitten or 2 kittens
    • Foo wrote:

      Heaethstone-style mill is just "control with mill as an incidental wincon" which certainly exists in magic (and has even historically been the best strategy in stardard).

      "Fair" mill decks - in the sense of decks that play like burn but attack the library incrementally instead of the lifetotal - are bad in every TCG. Bad conceptually.
      Force of Will has a card like that, kinda. Seemed fine to me. (Note: Deck size in FoW is 40-60, while starting life is 4000. Also this only regards damage; "lose life" and "pay life" effects hit your actual life still.)



      Also reminds me of Weiss Schwarz, wherein all damage is mill, but decking out just means to shuffle your discard pile into a new deck and take one extra damage for doing so.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Sabbo ().

    • Please Understand wrote:

      Force of Will seems interesting.
      I like that you think so! Certainly if you can find a local scene I'd recommend trying it out, especially since it's just started a new cluster two weeks ago. (Five starter decks, one of each attribute; the first new booster box releases in early September.)

      Or there are a few online ways to play it for free (one official, others not), but since those give you every card available right from the start it might be a bit much for a new player.
    • Finally bought my Oloro, Ageless Ascetic commander today. This completes my fifth EDH deck!



      Also found and bought these sleeves, because reasons:




      Won a game tonight! 5 player free-for-all, so we only played two rounds.
      Turns out my red/green does something right. Finally.


      "Defense against the dark farts, am I right?" -Pennington
      | This spot reserved for Dark Link Reigns |


    • @Sabbo

      That card is helping its owner to play an incremental mill strategy tho, it's forcing its owner's *opponent* to have to play such a strategy which is good because, again, incremental mill is a bad strategy.

      Magic actually has multiple similar cards. Thought Lash is probably the closest, but you could look at something like Crumbling Sanctuary which applies the effect globally (so now you *are* milling your opponent to win) and saw play in a world championship winning deck...

      ... unfortunately it did so not by allowing a player to play a bunch of mill effects, but by abusing exactly the situation I described above. The winning deck came prepared to spend 95% of its life to pay for effects and then play sanctuary so that the life loss didn't matter.

      Now a days similar decks have much better ways to pay life without losing so Cumbling Sanctuary is bulk :/
      ~~~
      Although postsocratics like St. Augustine and Judith Butler explored a diverse set of ethical and metaphysical ideas, their unifying feature as a movement was a principled refusal to speculate upon which of the four elements the world was made out of.
      ~~~


      boxes is the best human and I am going to get her a kitten or 2 kittens
    • Foo i disagree that mill decks in hearthstone are glorified control decks - there was a slow meta where control decks dragged into fatigue(when a player runs out of cards and takes escalating damage), but our real mill decks are much more combo based. Using symmetrical card draw
      to get combo pieces and using it with bounce effects and combo cards , and you survive the combo yourself by shuffling copies of cards into your deck through gang up or more modern cards like violet illusionist.

      like idk how decks are qualified in magic as much, but hs control decks typically play lots(to the absurd) of removal and ways to increase life total. Theyre also far too slow for the game blizzard wants to sell which sucks, so they rarely see strength anymore. Too slow and expensive for the casual mobile player.

      They printed these two control cards this expansion which are gonna help bring back control warrior to tier 2/3 i think. Hero cards in general are v exciting for a potential control meta because they all have such good, long term effects. Its only been out two weeks so far though, and the meta usually takes a month or so to settle and a lil longer before anything experimental takes hold.
    • Well, I think you have to differentiate between a combo deck and an aggro, control, or midrange deck with a combo in it .

      A combo deck is a pile of cards with dozens of interdependent synergies all intended to interact during a single phase of play. A classic magic example which I believe has a near equivalent in HS is eggs.

      But if I have a two-card game winning combo that can be plugged into a deck without changing the other 52+ slots I don't think I automatically create a combo deck. I just give my aggro/control/midrange/tempo/xerox/whatever deck another option.

      Obviously there's some fuzziness here. If I start with a combo deck and find I have 5 or 6 slots to fill to shore up my aggro match so I throw in bounce, removal, or some other sort of disruption is the deck now a control deck? If I start with control-with-a-combo and then replace 2 or 3 disruptive cards for cards that make my combo win faster or more efficient is the deck now a combo deck?

      In both cases probably no, but certainly the two builds are converging. Modern magic spent years dominated by Splinter Twin and Birthing Pod, decks that straddled the line between combo/control and combo/midrange respectively. Makes good classification systems hard.

      I'm not an HS expert, but the Rogue mill deck looks to me like a control deck with a card combo as a wincon, not a dedicated combo deck. Whether I'm correct or not, it could still be that a true combo deck that ends in a milling exists in HS. How would I know?

      But I think I can say with confidence that Hearthstone has no Traumatize. No Jace, Memory Adept. No strategy that says "leave the board entirely alone and hit the opposing library for 5, 10, 20 cards at a time until it's empty". That's what I'm talking about when I say incremental Mill.

      Edits: mobile posting is gross
      ~~~
      Although postsocratics like St. Augustine and Judith Butler explored a diverse set of ethical and metaphysical ideas, their unifying feature as a movement was a principled refusal to speculate upon which of the four elements the world was made out of.
      ~~~


      boxes is the best human and I am going to get her a kitten or 2 kittens
    • but if a decks only win condition is that combo(barring a crazy turn of events or a really bad opponent) then surely that makes it a combo deck?

      Edit: also fwiw, there are actually a couple cards getting more incremental mill focused in later expansions, with cards like Gnomeferafu and the generated card death grip. Hearthstone is still a relative baby, its like 3 years old and i think has 9 expansions in total now, and half of those are 40 card expansions in the form of single player content.



      why would trump support the vikings

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Keith ().

    • but if a decks only win condition is that combo(barring a crazy turn of events or a really bad opponent) then surely that makes it a combo deck?

      I don't think it's useful to make that classification no. Consider Weissman's "The Deck" generally recognized as the first control deck in the history of TCGs. The Deck devoted exactly two slots to its wincon which were sometime Serra Angels and sometimes Fireballs.

      Today they could instead be Dark Depths/Thespian's stage. Or Thopter Foundary/Sword of the Meek. Or... Earthcraft/Squirrel Nest, idk? These are all two card combos which would provide at least as powerful an offence as the Angels or the Fireballs but The Deck would play absolutely identically if it was using these instead. It would be silly to say that the deck stopped being a control deck just because the final play of the final turn was a combo instead of a big sorcery or a powerful creature.
      ~~~
      Although postsocratics like St. Augustine and Judith Butler explored a diverse set of ethical and metaphysical ideas, their unifying feature as a movement was a principled refusal to speculate upon which of the four elements the world was made out of.
      ~~~


      boxes is the best human and I am going to get her a kitten or 2 kittens
    • I don't know much about the YuGiOh meta, but in magic if a combo deck can't get under the fastest aggro deck in the format you usually just don't play the combo deck :P
      ~~~
      Although postsocratics like St. Augustine and Judith Butler explored a diverse set of ethical and metaphysical ideas, their unifying feature as a movement was a principled refusal to speculate upon which of the four elements the world was made out of.
      ~~~


      boxes is the best human and I am going to get her a kitten or 2 kittens
    • Been a while since I played YGO competitively but back when I did, the meta was card advantage, card advantage, card advantage. Draw many cards and have lots of removal effects to put your opponent in topdecking situations. Effective since the game has no "Land->Mana" mechanic and therefore anyone in a topdecking situation has no resources with which to summon powerful monsters even if they draw them, and the lesser monsters get wiped before they can be sacrificed.

      The natural counter to this is large monsters that have immunity/resistance to removal, like Horus the Black Flame Dragon Lv8 or King Dragun+BEWD, or Ancient Gear Golem etc. Of course these strategies need decks built around them and so have a greater dependency on luck but when they work they work.

      Then you have shutdown decks based around cards like Gravity Bind or Macro Cosmos and which negate entire strategies. They stall until they can set up a sweeper, like for instance removing enough cards from play to beef up Helios the Primordial Sun.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by ibLeo ().

    • LeoBravo wrote:

      Been a while since I played YGO competitively but back when I did, the meta was card advantage, card advantage, card advantage. Draw many cards and have lots of removal effects to put your opponent in topdecking situations. Effective since the game has no "Land->Mana" mechanic and therefore anyone in a topdecking situation has no resources with which to summon powerful monsters even if they draw them, and the lesser monsters get wiped before they can be sacrificed.

      The natural counter to this is large monsters that have immunity/resistance to removal, like Horus the Black Flame Dragon Lv8 or King Dragun+BEWD, or Ancient Gear Golem etc. Of course these strategies need decks built around them and so have a greater dependency on luck but when they work they work.

      Then you have shutdown decks based around cards like Gravity Bind or Macro Cosmos and which negate entire strategies. They stall until they can set up a sweeper, like for instance removing enough cards from play to beef up Helios the Primordial Sun.
      I remember when Hearthstone came out, and I made a simple deck based on card advantage, I reached a pretty high ranking without trying too hard. I don't know if it's still a thing in that game, back then the card pool was very limited, so card advantage was a simple and effective way to overwhelm the opponent with your options. Coming from YGO most definitely played a role in me heading that direction, lol.

      I haven't been keeping up with the YGO meta lately, which seems to be Pendulum monsters, but I did enjoy Synchro decks a lot back when they were the meta. That was my favourite ever YGO era for sure, since you could pull off some very elaborate plays.

      I'm kinda itching to play some YGO online with my Stardust deck. Love me these bad bois:

      Display Spoiler


      Let's end the game this turn:



      Nice ANYTHING you are trying to do there, it would be a shame if anything happened to it:



      And last but not least, the trump card that nobody ever expects for whatever reason:



      "Can't post that on a Christian forum."

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Please Understand ().

    • I took the plunge and started my Fire Emblem Cipher collection. Bought up four starter decks. I was only going to get one, then I realized just how cheap they are, so I got two. Then I converted JPY to USD and figured I might as well get 3. Then 150 cards total seemed kind of light, so I got another.

      I have a problem already, I think. I just hope to god that I get Nino when I go after the purple cards from series 7. If she's not in the booster box I get for series 7... This is going to end up being more expensive than necessary.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Valflame ().