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    The War Room III: From British Invasion to British Implosion
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      logicalpencils wrote:

      Excuse me, but my initial response was not to the poor education comment, it was to the snarky reply to it that suggested that all of the people who voted for Trump are said uneducated individuals.
      It wasn't a snarky reply, it was pretty.. true? Like, I'm not even trying to be a dick about it. Trump has a majority of his support come from two places: Rural areas and the South. Tell me, what areas of the United States tend to have worse education numbers? Hint: One of them is a state I live in.

      It doesn't mean these people are bad people, it means they have shit education and it shows in their literacy rates. People with poor education also tend to be more ignorant than those who don't have poor education; hence why they may be more willing to believe Trump's bullcrap or whatever fake news stories they see on Facebook. Like, do you know how tired I am of seeing people share the whole "THESE DOCTORS FOUND A CURE TO CANCER AND THEN MYSTERIOUSLY TURNED UP DEAD" stories on FB seriously? Pretty fucking tired of it.

      Are we actually trying to construe the intent to enforce border laws as inherently genocidal? I don't think "illegal immigrant" exactly counts as an ethnic, racial, or religious group, and the desire to remove them from the country for breaking our laws has much more to do with them, you know, breaking our laws, than it does about their being Latino and the intent to "destroy their culture". Like seriously are we calling illegal immigrants their own cultural identity? Really? Should I be worried about the "genocide" of the robber community because we have laws against that which we try to enforce?

      Enforcing the borders is fine. The United States is allowed to have borders that they enforce fairly and to the letter of the law, even if I do believe that we need comprehensive immigration reform alongside this so that with the enforced borders it's actually possible for people to come in legally in less than a decade and a half (I think @Lucretia posted a very informative image about the amount of time it takes people to get into the country - not too sure, but if you do have it Lu pls send it to me or post because I'm actually curious to see it again.)

      Anyways, never did I say illegal immigrants had their own cultural identity lmao. That's fucking ridiculous. What we do need to look at is the following:

      Who are these policies targeting? By and large they're targeting non-white people of Spanish descent, or if you want to cast a broader net you just have non-white non-Christians in general with the Muslim ban Trump tried to institute when he first became president. These policies are dangerous because, yes, the United States is trying to eliminate Latinx culture in the United States. The first step is ~preventing more people from coming in~ however you want to frame it as "oh they're illegals"

      Just check this out: washingtonpost.com/world/the_a…ml?utm_term=.e87d06203649

      Or look at Trump's attacks on Mexicans during the election. Look at the treatment of the DREAMers since he was elected. Look at how people in the United States scoff at the idea that people might speak Spanish better than English, even though we do not have a official language in place. It's everywhere, not just people on this forum claiming that there's a genocide happening. It's being claimed because it's true.

      When English speaking Americans came down into my homeland and eradicated my culture they didn't frame it as a genocide, they framed it as them coming into "better educate us". But it was a genocide. When white European settlers came to the New World and eradicated Native Americans, it wasn't called genocide, it was called them "taming the land" or "bringing the light of God to the uncivilized Natives". Now, as the United States works to push out all but a sliver of Latinx culture; the government barring new people from coming and deporting the old, the white population discriminating against these people, it's not called genocide, it's called "getting rid of the illegals and enforcing our borders".

      You can argue that the separation of children from parents during the trial process is wrong, and I'm inclined to agree. But it wasn't instituted by Trump, and to use "genocide" to describe it is clearly an attempt to conflate it with things it clearly is not. This is not Japanese internment, this is not the destruction of the Native American culture, this is not the Holocaust.

      Wow, I'm glad you agree that separating children as young as infants would be wrong. As an aside, it was started by Trump. Even if it wasn't, it was greatly exacerbated by Trump. Even if it wasn't greatly exacerbated by Trump, it's happening while he is president and he sat on his little desk or at his little golf course with his tiny hands up his ass saying he couldn't do anything because "dumbocrats".

      Even if this was somehow "Obama's fault", I honestly could give less of a fuck if it's Obama's fault. Obama isn't president, Trump is, and if Obama had made a shitty policy like this then Trump is just as shitty for continuing it.



      Ask me for the clan test!

      The post was edited 2 times, last by goronmario ().

    • Those affected are majority Latino because those are the majority of illegal immigrants... this is like saying that police hate men and want them all incarcerated because the majority of people in prison are male.

      The only thing "exasterbated" by Trump's presidency is that he acutally does what the Executive is supposed to do and executes the law as written.

      Also, not entirely sure how this is supposed to be a "non-white non-Christian genocide" when most Latino's are Catholic. It's not a genocide to have ~2,000 kids separated from their parents for the sake of the children not having to be locked in a cage while their parents await trial, when there are ~11 million illigal immigrants currently in the country. And especially compared to the 55 million Latino's in the country total, this isn't genocidal activity even if we take the most deranged, conspiratorial option on the president's motives for enforcing the law.

      Speaking of which, what should we be doing with the illegal immigrants, if enforcing the law as it is currently is "genocidal"? I'm all for a reform to improve the legal process for entering the country, but what do we do with people crossing the border with children? Keeping them all detained together seems to be the only other option if we aren't separating them, if we want to actually enforce the border.

      And again, this isn't genocide, and all the suspicions of deep malice on the part of the current administration won't change that.

    • Display Spoiler

      logicalpencils wrote:

      Those affected are majority Latino because those are the majority of illegal immigrants... this is like saying that police hate men and want them all incarcerated because the majority of people in prison are male.
      This is a dumb statement.

      A more accurate one is that police hate black people and that's why the majority of people in prison are African American. The reason that more people in prison are male is because males are raised in a state of patriarchy/toxic masculinity that makes them more prone to violent offenses and crime in general. But like, this is 100% not a conversation I'm about to have right now so you might as well not even respond to this.

      The only thing "exasterbated" by Trump's presidency is that he acutally does what the Executive is supposed to do and executes the law as written.

      It's a shitty law, he did not have to execute it, and he's shitty for doing so. It's not like he's not complicit in it because he didn't directly write the law or whatever it is that makes this a thing, and with his wide range of comments disparaging latinx people that I can choose from to make a point, it's obvious that he's more than happy to execute this because he doesn't like these people.

      Also, not entirely sure how this is supposed to be a "non-white non-Christian genocide" when most Latino's are Catholic. It's not a genocide to have ~2,000 kids separated from their parents for the sake of the children not having to be locked in a cage while their parents await trial, when there are ~11 million illigal immigrants currently in the country. And especially compared to the 55 million Latino's in the country total, this isn't genocidal activity even if we take the most deranged, conspiratorial option on the president's motives for enforcing the law.

      I don't recall saying it was a non-white non-Christian genocide, I said that the United States is targeting people who are not white, and if you want to extend to other policies like Trump's travel ban, you could say that they are targeting non-Christian people along with non-white people. or, in simpler terms, white americans hate people who are "other" than them.

      As far as the 2000 children being separated: That's still an abhorrent number of people that are being separated from their families and treated like subhumans in these "camps". Also, yeah, the children are being kept in cages - just not the same cages as their parents.

      Regarding the ~11 million illegal immigrants in the country: people would love to deport them, but it's hard to do it because deporting them would collapse the economy. Not many people actually care about that, though, the real answer is that it would be hard to do it. It would also be hard to get rid of the other latinx in the country. So the answer is to just make them feel unwelcome enough that they either a) completely assimilate into the United States and give up their old culture or b) leave.

      Speaking of which, what should we be doing with the illegal immigrants, if enforcing the law as it is currently is "genocidal"? I'm all for a reform to improve the legal process for entering the country, but what do we do with people crossing the border with children? Keeping them all detained together seems to be the only other option if we aren't separating them, if we want to actually enforce the border.

      Not keeping kids in cages is a pretty good answer. Not separating families without a means to actually bring them back together is another good one.

      The real answer to this is that, yes, we just need to have comprehensive immigrant reform. In lieu of that, though, we need to stop treating these people that are just trying to escape unlivable conditions in their home countries for a better life like some kind of monster alien species. They're human and they deserve basic human dignity. If they're deported, they're deported, but they don't need to be treated like scum of the Earth because of it. And we need to make it possible for these people to actually come in to the country legally.

      also, as an aside, a lot of these people straight up are seeking asylum and instead of being granted asylum like they should be, they are just treated like shit and then sent back. so instead of just calling it illegal immigration, let's let the asylum seekers have asylum and then we can move from there.

      And again, this isn't genocide, and all the suspicions of deep malice on the part of the current administration won't change that.


      yes it is, and there's no suspicion of deep malice it's very obviously there. like literally our president hates the latinx people to our south so much that he wants to build a fucking wall to keep them out rather than do some sort of immigrant reform or put the money to good use like better health care, infrastructure, education, or.. literally anything else. nah, the man that said that the brown people coming into our country are rapists and wants to build a multi-BILLION dollar wall is definitely not malicious.


      as an aside, out of the entire post i made, you addressed like three things i said so i'm actually just not going to reply to you anymore. i don't feel like having a conversation with someone who cherry picks my responses so that they can only reply with "gotchas"


      Ask me for the clan test!

      The post was edited 1 time, last by goronmario ().

    • Just a friendly mod note regarding the rules on debating in good faith:

      By posting, you are agreeing that you will participate in discussion, not to simply state your views or ignore evidence present. [You are entitled to believe what you like and you are free to post that, but you are not entitled to dismiss or ignore evidence contrary to that.]

      Carry on and play nicely.
    • It's a little difficult to have a cohesive discussion and address everyone's points when they go off on about six tangents and I'm the only guy on the other side. I was just trying to stick to the issue of border enforcement and how the desire to do so is perfectly reasonable. But I will try to address everything from the last comment.

      For example, here's a fantastic compromise on the matter: let's have a legislative proposal that funds the wall so as to diminish illegal entry, and that also creates a path to citizenship for DREAM'ers and cleans up the legal process for new legal entrants. Why can't we have both?

      It is the job of the Executive to execute the law, no matter how much it sucks. If he starts acting outside of the bounds of the law, then he would be acting in a dictatorial manner, and that's no good.

      The United States is not going out of its way to target Latino people at the border -- Latino's are going out of their way to illegally cross the border. Asylum seekers have to seek said asylum at a port of entry to the country, not sneak over the border and then claim it's for asylum afterwards.

      I agree, 2,000 is still too many, but it's not even 0.02% of the illegal population in our country, so to call this a genocide is, again, totally disingenuous. And that's disregarding the fact that said separations are not even of a genocidal nature (it isn't permanent and the intent isn't to destroy their racial or cultural heritage).

      As for this ridiculous notion that America wants to banish all Latino's, no. There are some aspects of culture which all citizens should hold in common in the U.S. -- a respect and belief in the rule of law, in the Constitution, and in the country itself, an ability to speak the lingua franca of the U.S. which is English (though this certainly does not preclude the learning of other languages or of being raised with the language of one's heritage), and a devotion to core principles such as liberty and justice. As far as I'm aware, this is the case for nearly all Latino and for nearly all citizens generally, and in that sense they've already "assimilated" into American culture.

      But I have no clue what you mean when you suggest that "white America" wants to see the Latino culture totally removed from the country. I've spoken to white people, I've been raised by white people, I am a white person (oh horror of horrors), and not once have I ever gotten the impression or slight inkling of an idea from any of them that they despise Spanish people and want them stripped of their heritage or place in the country.

      Okay so how do you deal with kids who are taken across the border, if they can't be "kept in cages"? Where else are you going to hold them while their parents await the trial? Your only answer seemed to be "don't treat them like the scum of the Earth" but, if just holding law-breakers in a cage is a violation of "basic human dignity" then I'm not sure what you want instead. Or perhaps you're just saying that the conditions in said detainment facilities is not up to par and should be improved?

      For how "obvious" this genocidal intent is there's a whole lot of the country who isn't seeing it. You're the only ones who seem so incessently preoccupied with the race of the people crossing the border. Again, if the president's doing all of this out of malice, what would he do about border enforcement any differently if he didn't hate "brown people"? Your replies seem to indicate that you think that working on improving border security at all is an inherently racist thing to do, and that just doesn't wash with me.

      None of my replies are "gotcha", they're legitimate arguments and if you're going to discount them simply because they are in opposition to your own opinions, then I agree that there's little value in continuing this conversation.
      INACTIVE UNTIL 2021

      The post was edited 3 times, last by logicalpencils ().

    • Happy Labour Day to all my workin friends and friends of workers! Keep given 'em hell.
      ~~~
      Although postsocratics like St. Augustine and Judith Butler explored a diverse set of ethical and metaphysical ideas, their unifying feature as a movement was a principled refusal to speculate upon which of the four elements the world was made out of.
      ~~~


      boxes is the best human and I am going to get her a kitten or 2 kittens

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Foo ().

    • bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45269764
      only the court convictions. Classic Sweden

      don't get me wrong, I think Sweden is one of the best countries in the world (just back from Stockholm yesterday actually), and their social system is generally fantastic. They're far ahead of most countries with their education, economy, and generally thinking about green/renewable energy.

      But how they have their borders wide open, and created a culture of silence & acceptance regarding negativity surrounding the migrants is baffling to me.
      I hope the moderate party gets a larger following. But I fear that all the extreme events recently will push more voters to far-right and far-left.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Viajero de la Galaxia: Edited out image, I don't think it's appropriate for SD ().

    • The National Museum of Brazil's collection has been mostly destroyed in a fire.

      No one is believed to have been hurt, but this is still very upsetting.
      O Gods dethroned and deceased, cast forth, wiped out in a day
      From your wrath is the world released, redeemed from your chains, men say.
      New Gods are crowned in the city; their flowers have broken your rods;
      They are merciful, clothed with pity, the young compassionate Gods.
      But for me their new device is barren, the days are bare;
      Things long past over suffice, and men forgotten that were.


      Algernon Charles Swinburne, "Hymn to Proserpine"
    • I've been mourning this all day. Nearly the entire entomology collection, which was on the upper floors, was lost, including the oldest-dated scorpion group and a shitton of spiders whose place in the tree of life is now dubious.

      We lost the oldest known human skeleton found in South America, tons of pterosaur specimens (including a large pterosaur that was the inspiration for some scenes in the old BBC series Walking With Dinosaurs), several spinosaur specimens (to go along with Stromer's find being destroyed in the Munich bombing during WWII), and some completely unique fossils such as Santanaraptor, a fossil of a raptor-like dinosaur which was so well preserved it had soft-tissue elements like skin and preserved blood vessels. Now that dinosaur may as well not exist.

      Even worse is that a lot of the museum's artifacts were poorly documented, if at all, so of the 20 million or so in the collection, a devastating amount of it has been lost for good.
    • https://www.washingtonpost.com

      Cohn, a Wall Street veteran, tried to tamp down Trump’s strident nationalism regarding trade. According to Woodward, Cohn “stole a letter off Trump’s desk” that the president was intending to sign to formally withdraw the United States from a trade agreement with South Korea. Cohn later told an associate that he removed the letter to protect national security and that Trump did not notice that it was missing.

      This is our president, ladies and gentlemen. I don't understand how anyone can think this man is some sort of political genius or even a person worth any bit of your respect and support and not feel the slightest bit of embarrassment by it.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Common Knowledge ().