Forums
Guides
Features
Media
Zelda Wiki
Patreon
    So about the Gorons, again...
    • CW: discussions of gender, identity, performance and sex



      so this has always been a contentious discussion, but BotW has some pretty interesting implications for the gorons and gender! let's try to keep the politics and discussion of real life stuff mostly out of the topic, yeah? this is about a fun video game :)


      gerudo town does not accept voe (men) into their town.

      yet the goron's are all male, they call each other brother, they certainly all identify as men. we have never seen a "female" goron, but they are welcome in gerudo town?

      what does this say about the gorons, what does this say about the gerudo? do the gerudo define gender along on a basis of sex and not identity? i am willing to posit that the gorons do not have a sex, but all (so far) identify as men, which makes the gerudo more accepting of them. but in a weird, kinda concession that they care more about people's biology than their identity it seems.
    • I think one of the gorons actually realizes that he (and his comrade) are the only males in the town and wonders why the gerudo let them in.

      My theory for that is pretty straight forward: The gerudo just have no clue if female gorons exist and if yes how to identify them. So to not get into trouble asking each goron if he/she is a Vooi/Vaai (and having no idea how to check that), they just let let them all in. Also at least in the german translation the name of the goron has a female touch to it, so maybe that was the reason ^^.

      All other races have clear indications aka breasts on there female specimen (even the zora/rito) so there they have no problem

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Nihilem ().

    • Mod Note

      A little disclaimer here; watch what you say before you send it, think well about what it would imply - it would be appreciated if consideration to everyone who browse this forum to be shown.

      Likewise, avoid reacting explosively in-thread if you read something that offends or bothers you. If it does, feel free to use the report function and we'll look into it.

      And remember that this is discussion about a video game and it's fictional world, of course.

      Consider this a "Serious" thread (I cannot tag it as such, unfortunately :cookiemonster: ), so posts here are expected to have some degree of thought put into them, spammy/off-topic posts will be deleted on sight.
    • On-topic; I believe the Gerudo discriminate against human males, thus excluding males from other species as targets of discrimination - this includes the Hylians, normal humans and presumably Sheikah.

      While it has no real backing given what little interaction the Gerudo have with other species (outside Majora's Mask, but they didn't seem to hate men there, as far as I recall), I see it as the most plausible explanation.
    • Are there any actual proof that there doesn't exist female Gorons? I just assumed they were female Gorons since there were in the town. There are a lot of species where you can't tell the difference between males and females (unless you are familiar with the species in question). I don't remember if they called eachother "brother" or not, but it can as well be a question of translation-issues or simply just something they say to eachother out of pure habit... like you say "brotherhood" and sometimes includes females in that as well. In Swedish for example you call Swedish men for "svenskar" and Swedish women for "svenskor"... but usually you can easily call both men and women "svenskar", but not the other way around. It's like how a woman can easily dress like a man without it to be odd at all, but a man dressed like a woman in a pink dress would be very conspicuous.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by MVS ().

    • Nihilem wrote:

      I think one of the gorons actually realizes that he (and his comrade) are the only males in the town and wonders why the gerudo let them in.

      My theory for that is pretty straight forward: The gerudo just have no clue if female gorons exist and if yes how to identify them. So to not get into trouble asking each goron if he/she is a Vooi/Vaai (and having no idea how to check that), they just let let them all in. Also at least in the german translation the name of the goron has a female touch to it, so maybe that was the reason ^^.

      All other races have clear indications aka breasts on there female specimen (even the zora/rito) so there they have no problem
      as in, they are afraid of misgendering them? hahahaha, potentially! it is an interesting real world, parallel, but i question it because they all identify as brother to each other. it seems that their identity is exclusively male.
    • @Nihilem you are correct. He's walking around in the center of the main plaza, the conversation with him goes exactly like you said.

      FrozenDragon wrote:

      On-topic; I believe the Gerudo discriminate against human males, thus excluding males from other species as targets of discrimination - this includes the Hylians, normal humans and presumably Sheikah.

      While it has no real backing given what little interaction the Gerudo have with other species (outside Majora's Mask, but they didn't seem to hate men there, as far as I recall), I see it as the most plausible explanation.
      I'd have to double check this to be absolute sure, but I don't believe there are true Gerudo in Termina. I'm pretty sure they are just normal humans, and only are referred to as "pirates". They just reused the Gerudo character models from Ocarina of Time because, well, that was Majora's Mask's schtick.

      But I agree with your assessment on Gerudo in Breath of the Wild. My sense was that their discrimination was based entirely on humanoid races, such as Hylians and Sheikah.

      I also got this vibe that the game was subtlety poking fun at the Gerudo for the discrimination. Like, you can change clothes right in front of the town guards, and they'll let you pass through no problem. There's also the instance in the inn, where if you decide to do the spa treatment, the caretaker gives you a massage (offscreen), and makes a mention what a "Voe-like" body you have, but remains totally oblivious to Link being a man. It sort of feels like the game belittles the Gerudo as being naive and ignorant for their discrimination.

      EDIT -

      I was incorrect. The pirates in Majora's Mask are specifically referred to as being "Gerudo Pirates" at some point.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Mirren ().

    • Would have been so much funnier if Link was a lot more manly in BotW, like a Gaston-type or Groose... dressed like a Gerudo chick. That alone should have been reason enough to make Link to a very muscular man with broad shoulders and very tall.

      And it would have been fun to hear Link talk in the Gerudo segment... like he is like 17 in the game or something? So he must have a maleish voice... so he must have had trouble speaking in there without being thrown out lol.
    • I don't think it's a matter of not wanting men constantly bothering them. It's probably more cultural since most seem eager to go out and find men from what I've seen for marriage.

      My guess is like what others have stated. In Lord of the Rings and other fantasy settings dwarven women are often mistaken for men because their voices are similar and they have beards as well. I bet its something similar that Goron women are also similar in sound and appearance, so when they go up to the guards they just don't know the difference.
      It's a shame to ruin such a beautiful morning by being awake

      -Bill Watterson
    • but Rhondson is a masculine sounding name, hell in nordic countries, "son" are a suffix is specifically for men, to denote that they are the SON of someone else.


      so i don't think feminine or masculine sounding names really works here... i am swaying to Erikson's explanation that the discrimination against men is specifically upon heteronormative grounds.

      it is to keep the men who would be likely interested in them out, but since gorons appear to be asexual or reproduce asexually, their male identity is less of an issue.
    • Lucretia wrote:

      but Rhondson is a masculine sounding name, hell in nordic countries, "son" are a suffix is specifically for men, to denote that they are the SON of someone else.


      so i don't think feminine or masculine sounding names really works here... i am swaying to Erikson's explanation that the discrimination against men is specifically upon heteronormative grounds.

      it is to keep the men who would be likely interested in them out, but since gorons appear to be asexual or reproduce asexually, their male identity is less of an issue.
      A ton of women/girls also have "son" in their surnames in Sweden, Norway and Denmark for example... the surname doesn't change just because a girl is borned in a family. Lyndae actually sounds feminine in my opinion, if that name is correct, it sounds familiar.

      It is very possible that they all or some of them are male in that town, but do you really think that female Gorons don't exist? Why? Because they look masculine? Because they call eachother brothers? As I wrote above that isn't all too convincing to draw the conclusion that female Gorons simply don't exist. And I want to know how they make babies if only male Gorons exist. Cloning? Do they split themselves in two like a cell? Or just lay manly eggs, or what? Really, I have never heard about this before. Very new to me and I have played Zelda since like forever so I would really like to know what you base all this on.

      And I have a hard time believing the Gerudo would allow male Ritos or Zoras to walk into their walls, since they actually look masculine. Feels like there is a reason that the only Rito inside was a female one.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by MVS ().

    • As for the whole 'exclusion of human males' thing, there is one Rito in Gerudo Town, but it's a female. I know there's a male Rito at the oasis, but I can't remember right now if he says anything about whether he's allowed within the walls or not.

      (as a random aside, was anyone else not totally expecting to be allowed into town without a disguise a la OoT at some point in the game and surprised when it never happened?)
      What good is Power without the Wisdom to wield it? What good is Wisdom without the Courage to act? What good is Courage without the Power to change the world?

      NNID: Croutonz
    • MVS wrote:

      Lucretia wrote:

      but Rhondson is a masculine sounding name, hell in nordic countries, "son" are a suffix is specifically for men, to denote that they are the SON of someone else.


      so i don't think feminine or masculine sounding names really works here... i am swaying to Erikson's explanation that the discrimination against men is specifically upon heteronormative grounds.

      it is to keep the men who would be likely interested in them out, but since gorons appear to be asexual or reproduce asexually, their male identity is less of an issue.
      A ton of women/girls also have "son" in their surnames in Sweden, Norway and Denmark for example... the surname doesn't change just because a girl is borned in a family. Lyndae actually sounds feminine in my opinion, if that name is correct, it sounds familiar.
      It is very possible that they all or some of them are male in that town, but do you really think that female Gorons don't exist? Why? Because they look masculine? Because they call eachother brothers? As I wrote above that isn't all too convincing to draw the conclusion that female Gorons simply don't exist. And I want to know how they make babies if only male Gorons exist. Cloning? Do they split themselves in two like a cell? Or just lay manly eggs, or what? Really, I have never heard about this before. Very new to me and I have played Zelda since like forever so I would really like to know what you base all this on.

      And I have a hard time believing the Gerudo would allow male Ritos or Zoras to walk into their walls, since they actually look masculine. Feels like there is a reason that the only Rito inside was a female one.
      i'll take the point that there are women with the suffix son in nordic places too


      regardless you can't then claim lyndae as a feminine name and proof of a goron's sex/gender, if you recognise that names with 'son' are generally masculine, but there can be exceptions. that exception must go both ways, for there to be male gorons called lyndae as well.


      BUT ANYWAY, there has never actully been a female goron:


      Zelda Wiki wrote:

      Zelda Wiki wrote:


      Gender
      All Gorons that are seen are male and are referred to as such. They call each other "brother" (calling Link "Brudda" in Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess) and never once has a Goron referred to another as "she" or "her". Also, many young Gorons are shown as having a father, but no second parent has ever been mentioned. In the Ocarina of Time manga, there are some feminine looking Gorons; however, the manga is non-canonical and is not accepted as fact.
      so how the reproduce is a mystery, but considering they are not carbon based, hell it could be anything from asexual reproduction to cloning to who knows?
    • Well, the difference between Rhondson and Lyndae is that Rhondson sounds like a typical surname which women has as often nowadays as men, while Lyndae really sounds like a first name which you give a newborn baby... and that sounds feminine. That was my thinking.

      I really don't care that much about the lore of the Zelda series since most feels like an afterconstruction (don't know if you say it in that way in English so sorry if you don't get what I mean). But it just feels odd that there wouldn't be any female Gorons. I think it does, just that Nintendo never has thought about it before. I think if you would ask Aonuma or Miyamoto they would say spontaneously that there do exist female Gorons, but at the same time can't name someone from earlier installments since they have not thought about it before lol. That is my honest belief on the issue.

      And maybe it was my imagination or/and placebo-effect but I though at least some of the Gorons looked more feminine than other Gorons, but could as well have been my imagination since I just assumed they were females since they were inside.
    • I think the Gorons are let in, without mentioning of their gender, is cause the Gerudo won't/can't reproduce with them.

      They don't let male Rito into the town either, the male Rito at the bazaar says so.
      Guy - "I would like to see what Gerudo Town looks like, even if I can't go inside..."
      (His name is guy lol)

      Zora males we just don't know, can they even survive over there?
      Electric elixirs does not work on them apparently, does heat elixirs work?
      I would still think they kinda need some nearby watersource, and besides the Bazaar and the town itself there is not much water there.



      I agree that the reproduction of the Gorons have never been discussed in game or any other official sources they could very well reproduce asexually or by other means.
      Since there are fathers and brothers there could be a cloning process. But I won't rule out other probabilities.
      I think I read someones headcanon a good while ago that they thought that the Gorons find their youngs while digging and the finder of the "egg" or whatever is the father.
      Could also be the stork Rito...
      :cookiemonster:




      Regarding the Swedish and also foreign surnames ending with son, it has been hallowed out in our present day. But it was meant for just that, the son of Sven became Svensson.
      This exists all over the place, but some places are more strict with such things. I think Iceland still has this strictly? Ending with son if its a boy and dóttir if its a girl. (son/daughter)

      Also, we don't really know much of the Bolson construction policy besides their name needs to end with "son".
      We don't know if its surname or first name or if it doesn't matter.
    • The first question is, do female Gorons even exist?

      Who the heck knows!

      I would assume that's exactly what Gerudo ask themselves whenever they see a Goron.

      I like to imagine an extremely awkward moment with a Goron approaching the town and the guards being like "Hey, there's a Goron coming. Is that a voe, or a vai?" and ultimately pretending he's not even there as he passes the gate in order to avoid asking uncomfortable questions.

      Whatever's the case, I totally agree with the idea that Gorons have no sex and just identify themselves as males because it fits them better. If Gorons have no sex, then there's no freaking point in applying restrictions. After all these games and towns and characters, I can't just believe that Goron females exist and we just haven't seen them, especially with how much BotW fleshed-out each race, and we can easily see men, women, children, elders, and whatever the heck people can be accross every single race. They wouldn't just purposely leave Goron out of that. Unless there's something weird going on, like female gorons being literally indistinguishable from a rock in the floor, I think it's safe to just assume they're not even a thing.

      You know, now that I think of it, it'd be interesting to see how Gorons refer to eachother in Japanese. Like, do they even use the Japanese word for "brother"? Do they use gender-specific words when talking?

      The post was edited 3 times, last by Khao ().