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    So about the Gorons, again...
    • Lucretia wrote:

      CW: discussions of gender, identity, performance and sex











      so this has always been a contentious discussion, but BotW has some pretty interesting implications for the gorons and gender! let's try to keep the politics and discussion of real life stuff mostly out of the topic, yeah? this is about a fun video game :)


      gerudo town does not accept voe (men) into their town.

      yet the goron's are all male, they call each other brother, they certainly all identify as men. we have never seen a "female" goron, but they are welcome in gerudo town?

      what does this say about the gorons, what does this say about the gerudo? do the gerudo define gender along on a basis of sex and not identity? i am willing to posit that the gorons do not have a sex, but all (so far) identify as men, which makes the gerudo more accepting of them. but in a weird, kinda concession that they care more about people's biology than their identity it seems.

      Pretty much every society ever for the past.... well, ever... has defined male and female by their sex. Maybe if a bunch of outsiders started telling the Gerudo that they identify as female, well, the Gerudo still wouldn't care because it's just foreign voe trying to get into their town.

      There's exactly one male Gerudo born every hundred years and being male makes them a king-revered-like-a-god by birthright. So you either have the lone male Gerudo saying "I'm not the king-you-should-revere-like-a-god!" or however many other Gerudo saying "I'm the king-you should-revere-like-a-god!"

      Without injecting real world social issues into Hyrule just because, how would you expect the Gerudo to start caring more about what sex someone tells them they are vs what they physically are?

      MVS wrote:

      it is still a much bigger issue/mystery how the Gerudos as a race can exist when they only reproduce females (aside from that leader that is born every hundred year). The Gerudos shouldn't even exist, so looking at it from that angle I wouldn't be surprised if Gorons just shit out eggs randomly every now and then without any sexual activity with females. That sounds more reasonable than the issue with the Gerudos. It would be one thing if the Gerudos was a bunch of Hylian hardcore feminist women, but they are an entire race of their own, which is f**king stupid and just goes to show how little love Nintendo gives Zelda as a series in terms of believable lore and worldbuilding.
      Yeah, especially after they go out of their way to explain it.

      What do you want, super-advanced-medieval Hard-Science-Fiction where Nintendo outlines the specifics of how sex works in the next Zelda game?

      MVS wrote:

      Well, only because a franchise is in the fantasy-category I will not accept anything with the excuse that "it is a fantasy". With fantasies I really appreciate some kind of logic within a framework of some kind... but still more generous since it is fantasy. I am open for different lifeforms out there in the multiverse (yes I rather believe in a multiverse than just the universe) so I have not so much problems with weird and different lifeforms... but lifeforms which is the same as us (biological-based humanoids with almost the same traits, features and functions as us) it indeed bothers me somewhat when it just goes against common sense. I have less problems if the Gerudos would be a completely other species (like Gorons) and you could come up with whatever... but the Gerudos looks like humans and therefore I am going to think of them as humans.

      Even if the genes "just" would be super-dominant, it would still be completely drowned by other genes after some thousands of years of incessant breeding outside the group, but whatever. And sure, I could accept some kind of magical ingredient in the Gerudo genes that keeps them look and behave like they do... magic is a thing in the Zelda series after all, but to me it just feels a bit cheap and an easy way out. It doesn't bother me at all that only females are born... just how they reproduce and yet keeps their traits and features to 100 %... even after thousands of years of breeding outside of their very distinctive/unique group. But sure, some magic property in their genes... I could buy I guess, even though I am not a big fan of it.
      "The entire species is female, which is due to their biologically adopting a form of apomictic parthenogenesis, in which the mother is cloned completely but allows for the use of foreign DNA to introduce mutation to the Gerudo’s own DNA. This results in none of the non-Gerudo parents’ DNA being passed on, thus it is used to randomize the Gerudo genome and then discarded."

      [Stolen from some other game that doesn't care about world-building.]
    • ^well it literally problematises their theory of gender.

      you have men who reproduce asexually and of a species with no female members. if they hold a biological theory of sex, the existence of these men problematises how they understand sex.

      this is what i think makes the difference between the goron and say, the rito. the gender rule exists so that vai can be away from voe for traditional reasons, but since for the gorons there are only voe, there is no need to separate them from their respective binary opposite, since that opposite does not exist.
    • Lucretia wrote:

      ^well it literally problematises their theory of gender.

      you have men who reproduce asexually and of a species with no female members. if they hold a biological theory of sex, the existence of these men problematises how they understand sex.
      And now for the not-sub-group-of-21st-century-whatever-country perspective.

      "there are asexuals who reproduce asexually and of a species with no male or female members, who adopted male terminology. if we hold a biological theory of sex, the existence of these asexuals changes nothing."
    • Lucretia wrote:

      now there, there's is no need to be rude~

      Itnis still problematic because now we see that they dont discriminate based on sex, instead they discriminate based on sexuality. Would they then presumably allow in homosexual voe since they let in asexual voe?
      Except they don't.

      Asexual as in not biologically male/female.

      Not asexual as in devoid of sexual attraction.

      To the Gerudo, Gorons aren't voe and aren't vai.

      They don't have to be vai to enter Gerudo Town, they just have to not be voe. And the Gerudo don't recognize Gorons as voe.

      A homosexual voe, on the other hand, is still a voe.
    • Volcan wrote:

      Yeah, especially after they go out of their way to explain it.

      What do you want, super-advanced-medieval Hard-Science-Fiction where Nintendo outlines the specifics of how sex works in the next Zelda game?
      When and where did they explain that exactly, and what was said? Please tell me. And nice straw man you just did there by the way.


      Volcan wrote:

      [Stolen from some other game that doesn't care about world-building.]
      Honestly I would be all for that kind of scientific-like explanation by some Sheikah scientist or something... or some advanced ancient recording of such data. Why not? Why is it that strange to you that some people actually want some kind of explanation for that kind of basic stuff. Same goes with the Gorons as well.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by MVS ().

    • Lucretia wrote:

      in which case, they are now able to identify the difference between sex and gender. They see the gorons as asexual, and as men. This goes right back to your first post to me, you literally just made my point for me?
      Except they don't and I didn't?

      Biological Sexes: Male, Female, Asexual

      The Gerudo see Gorons as asexuals "who adopted male terminology", not as men.

      MVS wrote:

      When and where did they explain that exactly, and what was said? Please tell me. And nice straw man you just did there by the way.
      Ocarina of Time, Outside the Temple of Time, Gossip Stone:

      “They say that Gerudos sometimes come to Hyrule Castle Town Market to look for boyfriends.”

      I mean, I guess they could have phrased it "Gerudo **** Hylians in the backstreets." if they really felt the need for that edgy teen rating, but it does its job nonetheless.

      The Gerudo first appeared in Ocarina of Time, long before Nintendo decided on the whole hi-tech ancient civilization thing.

      According to you, Nintendo didn't care about world-building when they made that game because there's a race comprised almost entirely of females (which is an actual thing that can happen in nature).

      Your problem with it is that the biology behind it wasn't explained in game, which would have literally required Medieval mapping of DNA.

      MVS wrote:


      Honestly I would be all for that kind of scientific-like explanation by some Sheikah scientist or something... or some advanced ancient recording of such data. Why not? Why is it that strange to you that some people actually want some kind of explanation for that kind of basic stuff. Same goes with the Gorons as well.
      1) You're asking Nintendo to explain how sex works in a Zelda game.

      2) Things don't have to be explained to justify their inclusion, they just have to be explainable. And they are.
    • I don't think the Gerudos care much for gender identity. If Link identified himself as a lady (say he's transsexual), the Gerudos aren't gonna give a flip. As far as they're concerned, he's a man and is not allowed in.

      @MVS- Isn't there a white Gerudo in Gerudo Town? It's possible some areas in the vast Gerudo culture do have offsprings who have Hylian/Gerudo traits, but there's so many Gerudos out there that they're not exactly at risk of dying out genetic wise.

      And why do I feel so racist talking about this??


      "I'm the King of the Seas!" - Said every Orca Whale Ever

    • @Volcan Dude what's your problem? please stop being rude and put words into my mouth and make straw men all the time. I don't ask them to explain sex which you understand d*mn well. The world isn't black and white, and while they didn't explained anything before, so have a lot of time passed since Ocarina of Time from 1998, and sooner or later it would be very nice if they could explain more when it comes to stuff like this. And I don't ask for an extremely detailed and scientific explanation (even if I wouldn't have mind that if it wasn't completely out of place).

      @linkthezora I am pretty sure it is just a Hylian woman there, like there is a female Rito there as well. And you feel like a racist because of the toxic political correctness in the western world, nothing to care about. And if we should apply real life genetics to Hyrule they are doomed to disappear since they are 100 % women (aside from Ganondorf). Would have been an entire different story if there also were Gerudo men there, but they don't seem to exist, and hence this discussion in the first place. But it could as well be their super dominant genes or something, even if it isn't that super satisfying, but I can buy that for now lol.
    • But that's the thing, @MVS, you keep applying real-world genetics to magical races. I mean sure, I'm totally with you on the whole 'they've had plenty of opportunities to explain this biz' thing, but your estimation that the race shouldn't exist doesn't hold any water in a world of talking rock men and fish people and whatever the heck Subrosians are supposed to be.

      It's entirely within the realms of possibility that the Gerudo have some sort of bizarre reproductive system that rejects any would-be inherited DNA from their male partners and merely relies on some other part of the sperm to enable reproduction, thus the continuation of their species would remain entirely normal assuming they have a steady supply of male Hylians to mate with (and thus far, in the games they've appeared in, they have). Normal human conception rules need not apply- that's an assumption you're currently choosing to make based upon the fact that the Gerudo women look physiologically similar to Hylian and Human women with only minor differences in height, skin color, and hair color and that they can mate with Hylian and Human males. According to real-world biology, that would make them the same species (this clearly isn't a horse/donkey situation, since the offspring of Gerudo/Hylian matches can still reproduce), however this isn't the real world and a plethora of veritable, hypothetical explanations exist as for how they haven't been breeded out. I guess the point I'm trying to make is, don't be so quick to apply real-world mechanics to fictional universes, particularly ones where we've seen time and time again that said real-world laws don't apply. You're only going to drive yourself mad.
      What good is Power without the Wisdom to wield it? What good is Wisdom without the Courage to act? What good is Courage without the Power to change the world?

      NNID: Croutonz
    • @Zesty Crouton Like the main reason I apply real world genetics is because Nintendo never let us know. And are they really a "magical race"... sorry for me nitpicking, I get what you are saying, and I have already said that I would accept and be perfectly fine with some kind of basic (or bullsh*t) explanation like that their genes are super dominant and "kills off" all genetic information from the males' genes (which probably for the most part are Hylian males I would guess). So to put it short, I just want them to elaborate on this a bit more, give us a bit more information every time a new main Zelda comes out would be ideal to expand its universe, obviously not just about stuff like these... but everything worth knowing. Although I am not against if they eventually releases a new Zelda which hasn't anything to do to the timeline since I am not a big fan of it.

      And as I said previously, I am not super invested in this even if it can seem like it. Since we talked about this I just felt I could jump in and come with my own thoughts. Zelda is not known for its tight and expansive lore and waterproof story... but I just don't understand why we still don't know more about stuff like these. That's all. I am still enjoying Breath of the Wild to the fullest right now, so it's far from the biggest deal to me... but it would certainly add some more depth to the series.
    • Well, a large factor behind why we don't know more about the Gerudo in general is obviously because they haven't actually appeared in that many games. Although... the Gorons have appeared in multiple games and yet we still don't know where they stand on gender... hmm...

      Honestly, Nintendo has many other story-telling issues that I'd like them to fix before they bother with this sort of stuff, but I do get where you're coming from.
      What good is Power without the Wisdom to wield it? What good is Wisdom without the Courage to act? What good is Courage without the Power to change the world?

      NNID: Croutonz
    • Zesty Crouton wrote:

      Well, a large factor behind why we don't know more about the Gerudo in general is obviously because they haven't actually appeared in that many games. Although... the Gorons have appeared in multiple games and yet we still don't know where they stand on gender... hmm...

      Honestly, Nintendo has many other story-telling issues that I'd like them to fix before they bother with this sort of stuff, but I do get where you're coming from.
      Fair enough, even though I THINK they should have some kind of appearance if Link is in a place called GERUDO desert (like in Twilight Princess)... and that tidbit of shy information should have been present in i huge game as BotW... but now it is just me grumbling. I mean it's not like it is a very tiny question or anything since it is supposed to explain their mere existence. But sure, they DO exist in the game, we just don't know how... and once again, the explanation can be as silly as it wants for all I care, my main complaint is JUST that they have never even bothered to even touch upon this question, more than "they ever once in a while looks for boyfriends at Hyrule Castle town".

      Gorons feels like a race which could as well have fitted the Mario universe perfectly. They just feels very goofy, and they makes me feel like "what you are seeing is what you will get"-with them. But the big difference between the Goron and the Gerudo-question is like Nintendo has given us hints and small bits of deeper story and context with the Gerudo and then just abruptly stopped (like Ganondorf's origins as a Gerudo, one male king is born every hundreds of years among a male-disliking group of women warriors/theives, also the fact that Twinrova is part of this doesn't make the Gerudo less interesting), and at the same time with the Gorons they never bothered with that kind of depth in the first place. So I can imagine that that is at least partly why the Gerudo question bothers me more... it's like "if you say A you have to say B".
    • Sven wrote:

      I personally think Gorons are like dwarfs in Tolkien mythos. Either females are pretty rare or they look just like males, or both.
      Lol I was just about to write that before. They indeed share some similarities. Would be kind of interesting actually if Gorons would have a keyrole in the next Zelda game's story, like how much focus there was on the dwarfs in the Hobbit-trilogy, and the Zoras can have the same role as the elves lol. Don't know however if Gorons would be interesting enough for that, but nothing stops Nintendo from actually making them interesting.
    • I don't think Gerudos differentiate between gender and sex, and thus to them a voe would be any male humanoid who has clear biological differences to note when compared to their vai counterparts. That said, the game openly mocks the gerudos for being so segregated by having the gorons question why they were let in and by having Link be forced to wear a armor set that's not only the second weakest in the game but also one of the only pieces of armor that can't be upgraded, at all times when in town.

      What's confusing about all this is why the Gerudo Voe outfit is illegal to sell in town, as I don't think BotW retconned the idea of there being male gerudos, so you'd think that if one happened to be born that they'd want easy access to that type of clothing.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Mango The Magician ().