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    • @'Mango The Magician That's actually just like mine.

      Bellum, it's a being of Malice and he is known for devoring Force. Force is something like food for Demons.

      It was said multiple times that there was Chaos before the Golden Goddesses, Chaos is not a being, it's not sentient. But after the Golden Goddesses made the world, it gains a Consciousness in the name of Demise.
    • Okami Takahashi wrote:

      Aight, let me amend my statement then.

      There are additions, such as what was stated above, that I like in TPHD- that is the ADDITION of lore. While not expanded upon, it's there.

      What I don't like and don't consider canon about TPHD are the following:

      - the removal of 3 bugs- timesaving as it is, it doesn't feel right either
      - Tentaltus mucking about with the TP Hylian font, putting their names in backwards in the Temple of Time, and writing weird jokes on posters
      - according to @Linkle, certain symbols and emblems were completely replaced/removed in certain places. While one might equate that with the retconning of the Gerudo emblems, well here it doesn't feel right. It feels like the removal of lore.

      I am not opposed to addition of lore to remakes of games, but I AM opposed to the REMOVAL of it, and/or addition of elements that add nothing to lore and are a dumb easter egg/self-insert.

      This is also why I don't like how WWHD made the Triforce Chart quest easier. Also, I LIKE paying Tingle exactly 398 Rupees per Triforce Chart translation. There's a lot of money to make in Wind Waker through treasure hunting and selling spoils.
      I don't agree with a lot of this, except the part about additions of unnecessary dumb lore.

      Mostly I just think we should count remakes as pick-and-choose canon, like DLC2 of BotW.
      The new Garo Mask design, canon, the painting of Skyward Sword in the Gerudo Fortress, not canon.
    • gamtos wrote:

      Because all of its additions like murals and chestplate details are stupid and confusing.
      I'm also frustrated that these details haven't been cracked, but I do think they were deliberate.

      From a meta standpoint, TPHD details and HE retcons set up the CT creepily well for BoTW. Damned if anyone knows what's going on in that mural, but it effectively retcons the Rito into the child timeline. HE retcons the DT to clearly show the decline of the Zoras, instead of jumping back and forth between "friendly/sea" zoras and monstrous "river" zoras (I feel this nomenclature is very incorrect, but I use it for ease of recognition). Makes it way more unlikely they'd do a complete flop back to being our friends.

      To me, the mural could be loosely represented as Link and the Royal family bringing gifts and making peace with various tribes. The goron and the female figure both reach for the triforce in the first panel, as if they're sharing/both touched by its blessings. In the second panel, the female figure seems to offer a large vase to the Rito. ..... That last panel is something, though. No good guesses there.
    • After the Skyloftians descended, Hyrule Kingdom was founded in the NE corner of the land. Some Skyloftians remained and became the Wind Tribe, who maintained close ties with the early Kingdom.

      Some time after Minish Cap, for a reason I'm still working to determine, Skyloft/The Island of the Wind Tribe descends and becomes Ocarina of Time's Castletown. Memories and legends of the Triforce resurface from this remarkable event, and a fierce war begins to claim it's power.

      A tribe of Shadowfolk, separate from Hylia's Sheikah, play a major role in the war and are eventually sealed away. Mass chaos still ripples throughout the land, but the King of Hyrule ends the Civil War leading into Ocarina of Time.

      ---

      The Shadowfolk is the broad name I apply to the race the Sheikah are born from. It's two most prominent clans being the Sheikah, sworn guardians of the Triforce and bloodline of the Goddess, and the Interlopers, a dark tribe of demon worshippers and masters of black magic. Both groups, when they were one, constructed the Temples of Time from Skyward Sword. The portion that would become the Twili/Interlopers began in the Lanayru Sand Sea, where the influence of their black magic would live on in it's Gerudo settlers. The portion that would become the Sheikah protected the Temple of Faron Woods.

      It's also of note that the Valley of Seers is guarded by Cia, a protector of the Triforce who can see across time itself. The Temples of Time, also likely Sheikah built, have a deep association with time. Cia also possess white hair and purple eyes, which admittedly aren't red, but at least kinda close. The Valley of Seers also has the whole Eye motif going on...

      ---

      Hyrule Warrior's Gate of Souls, located in the Valley of Seers, was one of the first attempts at the creation of Gate of Time. The Valley of Seers may be itself the very first "Temple of Time".

      The post was edited 6 times, last by Chateau Romania - Lite ().

    • From a meta standpoint, TPHD details and HE retcons set up the CT creepily well for BoTW. Damned if anyone knows what's going on in that mural, but it effectively retcons the Rito into the child timeline.
      This is exactly what I dislike, the fuel some patterns give to timeline theorists when Nintendo expressly and repeatedly denied BotW can be placed.
    • Nitro Indigo wrote:

      Velivolo wrote:

      "friendly/sea" zoras and monstrous "river" zoras (I feel this nomenclature is very incorrect, but I use it for ease of recognition).
      I remember seeing someone decide to call them blue and green zoras, and the Breath of the Wild ones red zoras.
      But BOTW has more than just red ones...

      Also @gamtos yes, the painting easter eggs, I agree with- I don't count those. I haven't considered the redesign of the Garo mask quite just yet. I'll need to do some consulting on that front.

      Otherwise, changing of lore via subtraction/unnecessary streamlining, I don't like. Addition/refinement is fine. Replacement depends on whether it's good or bad.

      I.E. the Tingle Bottle removes lore about Tingle and the Adult Timeline's technological history, but the there's also the Stone/Shard of Agony situation. The Stone was kind of meta and 4th wall breaking, being shaped like an actual N64 rumble pack, so in retrospect I don't think I like it. A humming crystal shard though, that fits better with the fantasy theme rather than just giving Link a literal rumble pack made of rocks.
    • Real Life Zelda Headcanon:

      gamtos' post above made me realize something. I mean, I knew it already, and we all know it too. Hell, this isn't even really a headcanon, more like a rant.

      Nintendo made the timeline, threw all the games into a branch, said "Here you go, guys! Have fun figuring out why we placed them that way!" and they create BotW, and... yeah.

      What branch is it in? It's at the end of them all. Is it a merge? Like we said, it's at the end of them all. What the hell does that even mean?! It's at the end of them all, damn it!

      So... what I'm saying is... I feel Nintendo will either make this a new norm, or I was right and this is the start of a whole new timeline.

      Basically, BotW is the new SS. Or, another game will come out that's a prequel to BotW, but still after all the other games.

      I'm very curious about the next Zelda title, and how Nintendo decides to handle the lore from here on out.

      I mean, every Zelda story is practically the same, just altered here and there.

      Maybe at this point Nintendo doesn't care if Link gets the Spirit Flute and the Dominion Rod, and has him climb up the Tower of Hera to get the Four Sword so he can defeat Onox and Veran before the Anouki die out.

      Just so long as they make the game look and play good.
    • gamtos wrote:

      This is exactly what I dislike, the fuel some patterns give to timeline theorists when Nintendo expressly and repeatedly denied BotW can be placed.
      Nintendo has denied a lot of stuff that later turned out true. Didn't Triforce Heroes originally have no placement?

      I also think HE and its retcons represent an investment in the timeline. Why bother fixing the timeline here, when you're going to throw it away for BotW? It's a lot of waste. I think Nintendo is just playing a shell game.

      Also,

      Eiji Aonuma wrote:

      We realised that people were enjoying imagining the story that emerged from the fragmental imagery we were providing. If we defined a restricted timeline, then there would be a definitive story, and it would eliminate the room for imagination, which wouldn’t be as fun.
      .... Damn. We're all just the Ancient Astronaut Theorists of the Zelda universe, aren't we? And yes, this would bolster your point, but I'm still not entirely convicned Nintendo isn't playing a weird shell game with us. Also, would they have sold half as many copies of MW/CC if they HADN'T been so mysterious?

      Nitro Indigo wrote:

      I remember seeing someone decide to call them blue and green zoras, and the Breath of the Wild ones red zoras.
      Zora nomenclature is outright destroyed by the idea to call all Zora that look like Labrynnan\Terminan zora (and thus OoT zora, also,) "Sea Zora". Based on fish biology, what's likelier is that all saltwater-dwelling Zora (Terminan, Labrynnan, NOT OoT) are their own species, and there are two varieties of freshwater zora - Our BotW/OoT ones, and the monstrous "green/river" DT zora, who have evolved from our friendly freshwater buddies from OoT.

      With this in mind, I tend to think of OoT/BotW-esque zoras as "freshwater" zoras, Labrynnan/Terminan Zoras as "saltwater zoras", and the DT enemies as... enemy or monster zora. Could technically be called freshwater or "river" zoras too, but this confuses them with the other group of uncorrupted buddies.
    • I kind of prefer using the term "Zola" for monstrous/"river" zora, and just Zora for the friendly Zora. Both could be considered in-universe as forms of an ancient Hylian term for "fish-people". it's probable that they call themselves (and each other) something completely different in their own languages.

      If it weren't for the monkey wrench of Queen Oren being a Sage, that implies she's a descendant of Ruto, I'd think they were two completely different species.


      "Breath of the Wild: "Zelda's Redemption" Chapter 3 now up!

      After Calamity Ganon's defeat, a devastated Zelda must come to terms with her ruined kingdom, dead friends, and the resentment of the Hero who had saved her, but lost his fiancee. When all hope seems lost, she comes across a legend of a holy relic that can set things right, if she can find the ancient keys to access it. With the help of new friends, and without Link, can Zelda finally become a legend, on her own terms?

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Violetlight ().

    • Violetlight wrote:

      If it weren't for the monkey wrench of Queen Oren being a Sage, that implies she's a descendant of Ruto, I'd think they were two completely different species.

      That's the thing, though- it's never been outright stated to my knowledge that the ALBW Sages are descended from the OoT Sages. Indeed, between the two groups there's at least one intermediate step, the ALttP Maidens, all of whom seem to be Hylian girls. This would imply that Sagehood is not passed down entirely by blood (though it clearly can play a role), or else that cross-species couplings can in fact be a thing in the Zelda multiverse.

      The latter, incidentally, is my headcanon, due in large part to Link being betrothed to Mipha and this being celebrated among the Zora. One would think they'd be less keen on the idea if it meant Mipha could never produce an heir. Admittedly, the... "mechanics" of such couplings are unclear, but that in and of itself isn't necessarily a problem.
    • @Setras

      To be honest that is the one thing I kinda wish was more clear when it came to the "descendants of the sages" that occurs in LTTP and ALBW. I think in an interview that the ALBW sages aren't blood descendants but I guess "spiritual" descendants.

      reddit.com/r/zelda/comments/9g…english_translation_of_a/

      In ALTTP, it is stated outright that the maidens are blood descendants and them being blood descendants is how the barrier holding Ganon was supposed to brake. We still have the same issue as ALBW just with less wiggle room. So i kinda think Nintendo needs to retcon that "blood descendant" plotline because it doesn't explain how a Zora/Gerudo/Dead guy/Goron/Kokiri to be the ancestor of Hylian girls.
    • The seven Sages of ALBW are reincarnations of the seven Sages of OOT.

      Spiritual Hybridation !

      Reincarnation usually occurs in the same species and, when occuring into another, the abilities of the native species are partially transfered to the new individual, making them spiritual descendants and hybrids.

      Gulley and his mother are descendants of a line of spiritual Kokiri Hybrids.
      Rosso is a spiritual Goron Hybrid.
      And Irene is a spiritual Gerudo Hybrid.

      Gulley's ancestor, the Flute Boy, was also a Kokiri spiritual hybrid, that's why he turned into a tree after "dying" in the Dark World, as he has the soul of a Korok.


      And .... Epona is a the Crismon Loftwing Spiritual Hybrid !


      The Sages of the Imprisoning War are not truly Hylians, they are part Wind people and related to the Ancient Sages, and the Maindens of ALTTP and FSA too. They are the only bloodlines of Sages there is.
      Some of them made it into the Sages of ALBW, being Osfala and Seres.

      Only Queen Oren and Impa are from the bloodline of the OOT Sages. (Osfala too, if we consider him as one of Rauru's descendant when he was still mortal)

      River Zora are Wild Stray Zoras, they breath fire because Zoras are lesser Water Dragons.
      Deitiless Zoras usually becomes Stray Zoras, when Jabu Jabu died, those who didn't followed his descendant were turned into "Zolas" (I, too am in favor of using Zola when talking about "River" Zoras and Zora for "Sea" Zoras).
      "Jabu" Jabu escaped from the river during the Imprisoning War and the Zoras that espcaped with him kept their Civil Zora form.
    • Setras wrote:

      That's the thing, though- it's never been outright stated to my knowledge that the ALBW Sages are descended from the OoT Sages. Indeed, between the two groups there's at least one intermediate step, the ALttP Maidens, all of whom seem to be Hylian girls.
      The HE says that sages are descendants of each other, and makes distinctions between different groups of sages. It considers groups of "seven sages" or "six sages plus zelda" to be related. It separates the Maidens (LttP, FSA, etc) out and lists them in a box with randos like the Lokomo sages as unrelated through blood.

      Nonoctoro wrote:

      Gulley and his mother are descendants of a line of spiritual Kokiri Hybrids.
      Rosso is a spiritual Goron Hybrid.
      And Irene is a spiritual Gerudo Hybrid.
      I'm not sure how to take this. The HE says that Rosso is NOT a Goron, but I do think he is still somehow successor to their line. My headcannon is that Gorons are extinct on the DT and that a Hylian was chosen out of necessity.

      gamtos wrote:

      @Velivolo my headcanon is that the distinctions of sea and river zora are entirely unique to Labrynna and has to do more with their turf than their survival needs.
      That would make a lot of sense, as saltwater dwelling Zora never live in Hyrule. Regular Hylians would never need to distinguish between saltwater and freshwater Zora. Now I'm seeing it as turf AND survival needs.
    • Gamtos wrote:

      Because all of its additions like murals and chestplate details are stupid and confusing.
      The most (and IMO only) egregious change of the nature has got to be the removal of the upside-down Triforces in Ikana in MM3D. Those were so mysterious and intriguing!

      Personally, I call them Kappa Zora and Dolphin Zora.
      The Twilight Realm was basically wizard Australia where every naughty banished person was transformed into some sort of harmless albino penguins.
      ~ Gamtos

      WW is Nintendo's Up, basically. Link is Russell, Tetra is Doug, and uh, I guess maybe Tingle is Kevin?

      ~ Gregarious Tree

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Kokiri Kid ().