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    Gender v. Pronouns
    • A friend went to the Zelda wiki and asked me "Has it always listed Pronouns in the info box?" which made us wonder what was going on and if there was an actual, specific reason why pronoun would be listed rather than gender and found this topic. After reading everything here, I have to say...

      What's being done for these changes is incorrect even by preferred pronoun standards. What's being listed are how others refer to a character, not how the character refers to his or herself. "Preferred Pronoun" refers to how someone prefers others to call them, but that doesn't mean that's how others do actually call them. This is being done for literally every page that's been changed, but since Shiek is the big example people want to go with for preferred pronouns, the only point that happens is Ruto calling Shiek male, but the line is very obviously an outsider assumption. Shiek looks male, and likely is deepening her voice to sound male, so Ruto assumes Shiek is male. This is not Shiek going out of her way to say "I am male", and is still incorrect. The Gender area of the Shiek page basically comes off as "Someone who isn't Shiek calls Shiek male, Nintendo flat out said Shiek is female, we don't care." All this really is showing to be is a Political Correctness campaign without any actual knowledge of the subject, and rather than helping the case of gender identification, it hurts it by getting it entirely wrong and making it look like some crusade. If you want to use Gwyndolin from Dark Souls as an example, that's fine for that subject, but that doesn't apply here to someone who was using a disguise simply to hide herself from someone trying to kill/imprison her. Maybe if afterwards we see a scene of Zelda still going around in her male disguise, even without more context, the matter could be discussed, but as it stands, it is just a disguise for her protection.

      Not to mention a couple of people have pointed out that this vote apparently went the other way, but are just being ignored, as well as the fact that this was kept entirely on the forums rather than being announced on the wiki itself where more people would see it and be able to pitch into the discussion. To me, this sounds more like a specific person's personal preference and abuse of power rather than the result of an actual discussion and vote. I have to agree with what someone else said, there is literally no character that requires this change, it actually made me think there might be a character like that because it's something I wouldn't find surprising in a Zelda game, though since it's Japan, I imagine it to be more like what you'd see in One Piece with someone having stubble, make up, and a dress, which still sounds like something I'd expect to see in a Wind Waker art style game. Even if that were the case though, that would only apply for that character's page, there's no reason to change gender to pronoun for everyone that doesn't actually identify as a different gender, and there's even less reason for it to have been added to non-gendered characters. It looks even more silly when you put that the pronoun is unknown on a character page for "Boy" or "Papa" or "Woman", which probably don't even need the gender line either.

      I'm sorry, I'm not a regular here, and I'm probably not going to come here again, but seeing everything that's been said, I had to get this off my chest. Sorry for the way too long post.
    • I think we should take a step back here. Being in a leadership position, the Zelda Wiki staff (Tony in particular) have to make multiple decisions on a regular basis. Whether you agree with them or not, if these decisions didn't get made, little would get done.

      Disagreeing is fine, constructive criticism is fine. All I'm saying is try to walk a mile in Tony's shoes before you cry "abuse of power."

      That said, I do think this was a bad idea and it was a bad call to commit to it based on a token majority – for lack of a better term. The good news is, it's never too late to walk back from it. Deleting the field entirely is quite easy to do.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Hylian King ().

    • I will agree though that resorting to pronoun usage merely based on what other characters, or even figurine descriptions, calls a particular character does seem incorrect.

      Sheik never once refers to themselves by any pronoun. "He/him" was taken from a line said by Ruto where she calls Sheik a man, but the thing about Sheik is that they are very clearly disguising themselves to look like a man. Literally anyone can assume that Sheik is male based on their physique and choice of clothing. It doesn't mean that the character necessarily calls themselves a "he", or any pronoun for that matter because Sheik doesn't.

      It's really no different to seeing a very feminine-looking transmale and calling them a "she" merely because they still look like a girl.

      The fact that this is such a debated topic makes me think that maybe the entire Gender and Pronoun field should be removed from the infobox, as Hylian King once suggested before. I do not consider that to be a separate discussion either, because it relates to both fields.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Midoro ().

    • BZ98 wrote:

      Sypher wrote:

      So I guess Tony is going to blatantly ignore any contradictions people will point out, because "votes over"?
      I assume so, I was told by Tony I counted incorrectly but no matter which way I slice it the vote didn't actually pass, hence my referral to the vote itself as a foregone conclusion and more a notice that it was happening, especially since he also says the vote's result is binding and will not be changed or reverted.

      Tony wrote:

      Your counting is erroneous, most glaringly because you're including someone who commented after the voting was closed.

      It doesn't matter what you do. This is a clear-cut case of a power-hungry admin with an agenda in mind. Even if the majority are against this change he's still going to go through with it. It's sad.
    • I figured I'd make an account to give me 2 cents on this issue, as someone who's also been an avid wiki-goer for the past 8 or so years.

      I agree that it does seem somewhat like not only has the "vote" for this change been mishandled, based on the two threads discussing this issue, but also the pronoun change itself.

      As several others have stated earlier, it appears at most 4 people were in favor of the change itself, with 6 (5 if you only count before the voting timeslot ended) against. The change was not announced on the wiki itself and the vote was in a somewhat out-there area i had no idea existed before the change had already been enacted. At some point it feels like the admin merely ignores how others feel about the issue to push their own agenda.

      Not to mention as Shadow12000 said, even the pronouns themselves aren't truly used correctly. The pronouns are supposed to be what someone would call themselves which with Sheik, as the princess Zelda who's merely in an alter-ego to hide from Ganon, would be she/her anyways, with Ruto merely making the assumption Sheik is a male. If in general we can never truly know what a majority of the characters in this fictional setting would want to be called without making gross assumptions anyways, it'd be safer to identify characters by their gender rather than pronouns. We never know if Old Man would be called a he/him or they/them, but merely looking at the sprite or his name we know he's a man.

      I'd vote for the removal of pronouns altogether, if not at the very least returning the genders to the character pages. This entire issue was not handled correctly at all.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by GildedLink ().

    • Gender suffers from the same problem though. You can assume a person's gender as much as you can assume their pronoun. Basically, there are faults with both with the way the wiki uses them.

      Which is probably why it's better to remove the field altogether. But I somehow feel as though people would be more opposed to that.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Midoro ().

    • I suppose you're right in that it doesn't really help that we've barely ever seen any examples of sexual dimorphism with some of the non-human races. It would be much easier to solve the issue if there were some kind of statements from Nintendo clarifying issues of sex, gender, and identity. Sadly, as a game development company, I don't think that's something that's high on their list of thought priorities.

      Still, I do think this needed to be brainstormed before being put into effect. I will be completely honest with you all, before coming into this topic, I saw the Pronouns section and the first thing that came to my mind was "great, more identity politics..." though I will admit my bias rooted in my profound weariness with the recent obsession with identity that I've noticed floating around the net for the past several years and having to deal with varying levels of zealotry, despite not really being bothered about the topic of Sex VS Gender on a concept level (I spent a good portion of a single college semester attending a class that covered parts of the idea). But of course, I am new here, so that's just my two cents; I'm more than well aware that I have no real say in the final decision.

      "When people can't control their own emotions, they have to control someone else's behavior" - John Cleese

      The post was edited 5 times, last by Codin ().

    • I think that gut reaction is why we've seen such a flurry of new people and anonymous posters coming here just to talk about it. People see the word "pronouns" and they assume someone must be trying to give Link "hir" or "zyr" pronouns or something.

      Not really sure what to do about it - the issue a lot of people have isn't the categorisation method but association with activism related to the word "pronoun".
    • Part of it is that it does seem somewhat like someone trying to push an agenda when Tony blatantly ignores the issues with the "vote," and a quick look at his twitter shows a lot of the things he talks about/retweets on his twitter have to do with those gender politics. It feels less like an informed decision that would make those pages better and more like something more biased and based on his beliefs, which I wouldn't go as far as to say is wrong, just so long as there's a majority agreement to do so, which there did not appear to be. I would not go as far

      In relation to what Midoro said about genders, I'd suggest leaving them where it's known/relevant but otherwise remove them entirely.

      Even then I feel as though the issue would not be as bad so long as we got an actual response and comments like BZ98's on the voting were not merely cast off as "erroneous," and instead given a proper explanation on how they're deemed so from Tony.

      Post by serelepe ().

      This post was deleted by Ty.: We will PM you. ().

      Post by Midoro ().

      This post was deleted by Ty.: Response to deleted post ().

      Post by AquaBat ().

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    • The ZW system has always worked on the basis that it's open to community engagement because the community are the ones engaging, but puzzlingly since the change we've seen an influx of campaigns on the wiki to vandalise our content, as well as never-before seen people coming here to complain and personally targeting Tony and going after him about his personal social media etc (which we've had to delete as it's against forum rules).

      We recently discovered it was because there were active threads on both 4chan and a subreddit dedicated to opposing "SJWs" which were bringing people over here. This complicates things because any vote we have would be meaningless. If we held a poll and I directed 30 forum moderators which way to vote, people would say that this was corruption, but those same people I suspect would be happy with a poll result brigaded by outside sources, which would amount to the same thing.

      There is real discussion to be had about the changes and people within staff have different perspectives on it, but currently the atmosphere here is based on people from outside the community coming here with no insight on wiki policy to complain about Social Justice Activism when none is occurring. For now we'll have to figure out a better way to do this as we've never really been brigaded about a wiki policy before.
    • Mistakenly made anew thread thinking this thread was locked (maybe its been unlocked since I last checked?) just wanted to add my input as a long time fan of zeldawiki, just registered after seeing all the drama about gender vs pronouns on the wiki. Instead of all the debate between gender vs pronoun why not just use "sex" instead? No drama or politics and in the case of characters like Fi where it's confirmed she doesn't have a sex it can just not be included.
    • Zeldan wrote:

      Mistakenly made anew thread thinking this thread was locked (maybe its been unlocked since I last checked?) just wanted to add my input as a long time fan of zeldawiki, just registered after seeing all the drama about gender vs pronouns on the wiki. Instead of all the debate between gender vs pronoun why not just use "sex" instead? No drama or politics and in the case of characters like Fi where it's confirmed she doesn't have a sex it can just not be included.
      One of the issues with this is that, even if this were to happen, there would be no real way to accurately describe how to refer to Fi on the wiki. You could say no gender, but even then that's super ambiguous and doesn't answer the question: "How do I refer to this character in every day conversation?" In that case, pronouns are still the best way to go.

      I don't think that this issue is really saying "ah, yeah, this guy -- now he's a she. We're gonna put his pronouns as her instead." It's just that, when describing a character, it's important to know which pronouns to use -- and which pronouns are used in game are the pronouns that describe this character, regardless of how they look. So describing characters by their pronouns are the best way to go, simply because it's the most accurate way to describe someone.
    • Sólsetur wrote:

      One of the issues with this is that, even if this were to happen, there would be no real way to accurately describe how to refer to Fi on the wiki. You could say no gender, but even then that's super ambiguous and doesn't answer the question: "How do I refer to this character in every day conversation?" In that case, pronouns are still the best way to go.
      Thing is though, Fi's infobox only gives info on her pronouns, not the gender as confirmed by Aonuma. Fi is genderless, but when people see "she/her" in the infobox, they're going to naturally assume that she must also be female. A lot of people do look at just the infobox to get a quick idea without reading the full content. It becomes misleading that way.