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    The Big Theory Q&A
    • I suppose they could have came from the Twilight, but they were described as coming from the midst of the Hyrulian people. I'm not sure that idea works completely well but I can see it.

      That reminds me, I've always wanted to hear what other people thought about this theory?

      ---

      Edit: Why are we so sure Rauru is one of the TP Sages? I see it thrown around a lot, and I understand he's said to be an ancient Sage, but couldn't that mean just about any group of Sages from long ago? Is this referenced anywhere in the HH/HE?

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Chateau LonLon ().

    • The idea that the interlopers are literal shadows is quite bizarre and it does not seem likely in my opinion. Note that in the cutscene a regular Link also joins the Twili's ancestors and all that.

      Also the Sage of Light in TP kinda has to be Rauru, those sages are very likely the ancient sages who had a hand in making the Master Sword and Rauru was one of those (note also how in TP HD they added the statue with Rauru holding that sword). That or according to some they are the OoT sages (which is pretty unlikely) but even in that case you would still be dealing with Rauru. Those are really the only two options you have for the identity of the TP sages.
      Extended Child Timeline (ECT): SS > Era of Wars > OoT > MM >> TP >>> TMC >> FS backstory >> FS > FSA >> Seal War > LTTP > OoX > LA >> LBW >> Golden Era >> Zelda 1 > Zelda 2 >>> BotW
      AT: SS > Era of Wars > OoT >> Great Flood >> TWW > PH >> ST >>> TFH

      Or have a picture of it instead.

      :sparta:
    • Can't be Rauru, though, because he locked himself inside the Sacred Realm and no one's opened the door to let him out. Besides, if that really was Rauru no one should have been surprised when Ganondorf busted out Power, because they'd have known it had gone on walkabout, looked for it, and promptly found it in Ganondorf.
    • I mean, the gateway was opened anyhow. This comes down to the Temple of Time in Twilight Princess. There is back and forth on if this is the same temple as in OoT and if the dungeon portion of the temple is actually the Temple of Light. Thing is, no matter how you slice it, the Sacred Realm's entrance was moved or otherwise tampered with between OoT and TP.

      If we say the TP Temple is the OoT Temple and the dungeon portion is the Temple of Light/Sacred Realm, then we can obviously see that in the present the gateway to the Sacred Realm is gone. Meanwhile, it is present in the past so it was moved somewhere at some point.

      If we say the dungeon portion is not the Sacred Realm and the two temples are the same, then the Door of Time was still abolished since it is not in the TP Temple anymore (there is another door with the same name but this door is clearly a different door with a different function and design). The entrance to the Sacred Realm also obviously does not reside at the Temple of Time anymore in this scenario and was moved.

      Finally, if we say the TP Temple of Time and the OoT Temple of Time are two separate buildings in separate locations then the Sacred Realm was also opened. The Master Sword namely had to be moved from one temple to the other, leaving the Sacred Realm either open without the Master Sword lock a the OoT Temple or having it moved to the TP Temple to be relocked there (depenging on whether you think the dungeon in TP is the Temple of Light or not).

      In any of these scenarios the gateway was moved and/or the lock removed temporarily, providing an opportunity for Rauru to come out. This is also ignoring the five elemental temples which seemingly have backdoors into the Sacred Realm that can seemingly be activated by the sages.

      As for the Triforce, it seems more that the sages were surprised that Ganondorf specifically had a Triforce piece then that the Triforce piece was gone:

      Ancient Sage wrote:

      神の悪戯か奴もまた神に選ばれし力を持つ者であった
      By some divine prank, he, too, was one chosen by the gods to have power.
      Note the "too"; it seems the sages were aware of other people chosen by the power of the gods at that time. Perhaps they were aware the Triforce had split, but were not aware who exactly had gotten hold of it. I too would be surprised if the ruthless dictator from the country next door had been blessed by the gods to wield a portion of their power.
      Extended Child Timeline (ECT): SS > Era of Wars > OoT > MM >> TP >>> TMC >> FS backstory >> FS > FSA >> Seal War > LTTP > OoX > LA >> LBW >> Golden Era >> Zelda 1 > Zelda 2 >>> BotW
      AT: SS > Era of Wars > OoT >> Great Flood >> TWW > PH >> ST >>> TFH

      Or have a picture of it instead.

      :sparta:
    • Chateau LonLon wrote:

      Outside of it's depiction in in Link to the Past and Ganon, what are some other instances of beings inhabiting the Sacred Realm?
      The Fat fairy that gives you the Silver Arrows, I guess she was a resident of the temple that Ganon remade into the Pyramid.


      Chateau LonLon wrote:

      In ALBW, why don't Link and Zelda transform into their spiritual selves like Link into a bunny from LttP?
      The curse was caused by Ganon's malice, the Sacred Realm reflects the hearts of those Inside, with Ganon's influence and his Triforce's Wish, it was turned into the Dark World, the curse of the Dark World turns those Inside into a form that reflect their heart.

      At the end of ALTTP, the Wish of Ganon was undone and his influence over the Sacred Realm too, the Dark World disappeared, returned into its original state, the Sacred Realm.


      Chateau LonLon wrote:

      Why did the Intelropers/Twili get to remain corporeal?

      They were already familliar with the Shadows since they once used the Fused Shadow's powers.

      They became Shadows, they aren't humans anymore.


      Benermerut wrote:

      I guess another way to ask could be: Are all monsters Malice-based?

      The remlits, which were wildlife, domesticated animals, Lemurs with big ears acting like cats.
      They were turned into monsters by Batreaux's aura of Malice at night, and he was a Demon.

      So, Ganon and other's Malice would do the same with other wildlife.


      Mango The Magician wrote:

      In regards to your Twilight realm question, I always personally saw the actual realm as being different than the Twilight veil, as the veil is a curse made by Zant, using the power gifted to him by Ganondorf
      Zant's wish was :
      光と影を 一つの闇に!!

      For light and shadow to become one darkness!!

      So, the Twillight aren't really the Shadows, there is a distinction between the two in Japanese.

      この黒い霧は、ザントが魔力で作り出した 光を吸い取る影の結晶・・・
      This black fog is the light-absorbing shadow crystals that Zant magically produced…

      精霊の光を奪い、ハイラルを トワイライトに変えていた張本人なんだ
      It's responsible for stealing the light from the spirits and turning Hyrule into Twilight.

      The Twilight were the world that Zant wanted to creat, the fusion of Shadow and Light, a World of Darkness.



      It's similar to the state of the Sacred Realm Under the Dark World, stuck under a constant Twilight.

      I guess it the same for the Light Folk when dwelling in the Shadows that when the Shadow folk dwell in the Light, the Shadow folk turn into Shadows and the Light Folk turn into Spirits.

      In the Twilight, both of them were transformed, the Shadow folk turned into Shadow Beasts and the Light Folk into Spirits. But then, the Shadow Beasts were able to turn the Spirits into other Shadow beasts like that old woman in Kakariko.

      "Remember that lady from the general store? Just one of those things attacked her, and a whole gang from town went to save her! And what happened? She was already gone, and there were TWO monsters waitin'!" — Barnes

      But the Twillight of TP are called トワイライト"towairaito", while the Twilight of the Sacred Realm are たそがれ "Tasogare".
      (You can write it like this too 黄昏, with the Kanji read separately, it says 黄Yellow 昏Gloom. this information is useless tho :tilt: )


      But…
      Why is the Sky Blue inside the Sacred Realm of ALBW, shouldn't it being in Twilight like ALTTP said it was?


      Chateau LonLon wrote:

      Why are we so sure Rauru is one of the TP Sages?


      There was seven Ancient Sages depicted in the Temple of Time and we only saw six of them in Twillight Princess.

      そこで、いにしえの賢者達は 心 悪しき者から トライフォースを 守るため 時の神殿を造られました。
      So the ancient Sages built the Temple of Time in order to protect the Triforce from those with evil hearts.

      Zelda called Rauru an ancient sage.

      It's a great possibility that he was once the Seventh Sage of the Ancient Sages and the one depicted wielding the Dominion Rod.

      What's the thing the one of the left is holding ? A lamp or a Jar ?
      If it's a Jar, then it might be the Ancient Sage of Water that got killed by Ganondorf, the one that wounded him too.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Nonoctoro ().

    • Benermerut wrote:

      Are all monsters unnatural? Obviously the undead are, and the blins are all demons probably.
      But I could see creatures like octoroks or peahats just being aggressive natural wildlife.

      I guess another way to ask could be: Are all monsters Malice-based?
      The ones who aren't are usually not technically monsters, like wolves and bees.
      In BotW, this is kinda shown as monsters typically fade to black and explode in purple smoke, while animals just drop and poof.
      Except horses who just lie there and eventually fade to make you sad.
    • Benermerut wrote:

      Are all monsters unnatural?
      "Monster" is a generic term used by the people to refer to troublesome creatures or entities.
      I see at least seven types of Monsters ->

      Supernatural or Artificial Monsters :

      Demons: the true Monsters, they were created by Demise:
      The Demon Kings, Batreaux, Death Sword and Cole's people "higher Demons", Vire and Acheman "lower Demons" and the Blins, Bokoblin, Moblin, Hinox, Goryas and such. "Inferior Demons".

      Undeads : Ghosts and remains reanimated with necromancy or by possession.
      ->Ghi, Stalfos, Gibos, Redeads ...
      Not all undeads are considered Monsters, some Ghosts are friendly and the Pirate Crew of the Oracle games kept their personality.

      Artificial monsters :security system and such.
      -> Armos, Beamos, Goreye and such, they do not even possess a will of their own and aren't technically evil.
      The Guardians(SS), potentialy created by Hylia, they were not evil but would still kill you at first glance if you step on the wrong floor.
      The Guardians(BOTW), of Sheikah craftmanship, which were corrupted by Ganon.
      The Phantoms(ST) too.

      Natural Monsters :

      Demonic Mercenaries : they are creatures of the Light World that chose to be Monsters for power or other interests.
      -> Lizalfos, Dinalfos, Lynels, Yigas and such. Byrne was one.

      Corrupted Creatures : animals and plants corrupted by the Demonic Aura.
      -> The Remlits at Night, Chuchu, Crows, Octorocks, Like Like, Deku Baba, Kargaroc ext ....
      Some like the Peahat are sometimes aggresive, sometime passive.
      The Iron Knucles of OOT or Soldiers in ALTTP would count too, as they were brainwashed into enemies.

      Guarding Monsters : they protect or test.
      The "Enemies" found within the Palaces in AOL for exemple, they aren't evil at all and were chosen by the King. Those who are here to test you, It would include Maz Koshia ...

      Naturally aggresive Monsters: "I just don't like you" "you will pay for this !!" "Tasty !"
      -> The Cuccos, the Lady, thieves, Wolf , Bears and other aggresive wildlife.
      They aren't impacted by any Demonic powers, they just don't like you or want you harm.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Nonoctoro ().

    • Something interesting to note on this topic is that Octoroks are apparently subject to some sort of Darwninian evolution according to Breath of the Wild:

      Hyrule Compendium wrote:

      Forest Octorok: Although originally an aquatic species, this type has adapted to life in the forest. They hide among the trees, disguising themselves as grass or unassuming shrubbery, and then attack when someone walks by.
      Extended Child Timeline (ECT): SS > Era of Wars > OoT > MM >> TP >>> TMC >> FS backstory >> FS > FSA >> Seal War > LTTP > OoX > LA >> LBW >> Golden Era >> Zelda 1 > Zelda 2 >>> BotW
      AT: SS > Era of Wars > OoT >> Great Flood >> TWW > PH >> ST >>> TFH

      Or have a picture of it instead.

      :sparta:
    • Something that's bugged me since BOTW, perhaps even earlier.

      It doesn't make sense to me that the Zora "evolved" into the Rito in the WW. Let's be real here; Zora are aquatic creatures capable of living in rivers and in seas, hence the species split Sea Zora and River Zora. So why would they need to fly after the Great Flood? If Fishmen and monsters can survive in the Great Sea; there must be other life beneath the waves, and thus a food chain. It just doesn't make sense. And we do see River Zora in the adult timeline later on in the form of the stupidly named "Geozards". I just don't think the developers were thinking clearly when being inspired by the Ocarina of Time manga's Watarara race.

      Sig banner by TruEdge76
      Avatar by ALinkBetweenHearts
    • Salt Water + Sea Water Zoras is probably a bad time, and it is very questionable if anything else than monsters live in the Great Sea honestly. Supposedly they are not inhabitable so no-one would ever find old Hyrule again apart from the intended way (i.e. pearls + Tower of the Gods).
      Extended Child Timeline (ECT): SS > Era of Wars > OoT > MM >> TP >>> TMC >> FS backstory >> FS > FSA >> Seal War > LTTP > OoX > LA >> LBW >> Golden Era >> Zelda 1 > Zelda 2 >>> BotW
      AT: SS > Era of Wars > OoT >> Great Flood >> TWW > PH >> ST >>> TFH

      Or have a picture of it instead.

      :sparta:
    • Ymcan64 wrote:

      I mean, the gateway was opened anyhow. This comes down to the Temple of Time in Twilight Princess. There is back and forth on if this is the same temple as in OoT and if the dungeon portion of the temple is actually the Temple of Light. Thing is, no matter how you slice it, the Sacred Realm's entrance was moved or otherwise tampered with between OoT and TP.

      If we say the TP Temple is the OoT Temple and the dungeon portion is the Temple of Light/Sacred Realm, then we can obviously see that in the present the gateway to the Sacred Realm is gone. Meanwhile, it is present in the past so it was moved somewhere at some point.

      If we say the dungeon portion is not the Sacred Realm and the two temples are the same, then the Door of Time was still abolished since it is not in the TP Temple anymore (there is another door with the same name but this door is clearly a different door with a different function and design). The entrance to the Sacred Realm also obviously does not reside at the Temple of Time anymore in this scenario and was moved.

      Finally, if we say the TP Temple of Time and the OoT Temple of Time are two separate buildings in separate locations then the Sacred Realm was also opened. The Master Sword namely had to be moved from one temple to the other, leaving the Sacred Realm either open without the Master Sword lock a the OoT Temple or having it moved to the TP Temple to be relocked there (depenging on whether you think the dungeon in TP is the Temple of Light or not).

      In any of these scenarios the gateway was moved and/or the lock removed temporarily, providing an opportunity for Rauru to come out. This is also ignoring the five elemental temples which seemingly have backdoors into the Sacred Realm that can seemingly be activated by the sages.
      Okay. How? The seal on the Sacred Realm can only be unlocked from the Light World by a Hero candidate (that was the whole point), and the only one of those on hand just buggered off to Termina. Granted, Rauru might have been able to undo it from within the Sacred Realm, but how would he even know to? His only point of contact with the Light World was his owl avatar, which was obviously diminished from his true self given that it was completely unaware that the entire endeavor of collecting the stones was pointless as far as keeping Ganondorf away from the Triforce was concerned (this goes back to the Hero candidate thing), and not something he was able to monitor since he never did anything to rectify that shortcoming.

      Ymcan64 wrote:

      As for the Triforce, it seems more that the sages were surprised that Ganondorf specifically had a Triforce piece then that the Triforce piece was gone:

      Ancient Sage wrote:

      神の悪戯か奴もまた神に選ばれし力を持つ者であった
      By some divine prank, he, too, was one chosen by the gods to have power.
      Note the "too"; it seems the sages were aware of other people chosen by the power of the gods at that time. Perhaps they were aware the Triforce had split, but were not aware who exactly had gotten hold of it. I too would be surprised if the ruthless dictator from the country next door had been blessed by the gods to wield a portion of their power.
      That still doesn't really work, though, because the entire basis for going after Ganondorf was that he got Power in an alternate future and fucked shit up. Sure, he didn't touch the Triforce this time around, but the very fact that it went on walkabout anyway despite that is a clear indicator that something wonky is going on. "Hey let's make sure it didn't go to him again like the other two seem have done" is a pretty obvious thought to have, and something easily checked by anyone who knows how.
    • Jedi Master Sagan wrote:

      Okay. How? The seal on the Sacred Realm can only be unlocked from the Light World by a Hero candidate (that was the whole point), and the only one of those on hand just buggered off to Termina. Granted, Rauru might have been able to undo it from within the Sacred Realm, but how would he even know to? His only point of contact with the Light World was his owl avatar, which was obviously diminished from his true self given that it was completely unaware that the entire endeavor of collecting the stones was pointless as far as keeping Ganondorf away from the Triforce was concerned (this goes back to the Hero candidate thing), and not something he was able to monitor since he never did anything to rectify that shortcoming.
      Yes, he was gone for a grand total of three days in Termina (unless you wanna say time runs differently in both dimensions but there is no evidence to back that up) before leaving to those woods again to resume his search. At some point he would realize he wouldn't find what he was looking for and return to Hyrule and at that point you can fuck with the seal. Twilight Link also has the ToC, which would indicate he is a descendant of the Hero of Time (barring what any of the inaccurate books have to say about it or any Hero's Shade theories). Or perhaps Zelda can pull it too, since she can also wield it despite only Link being able to do so supposedly, but that is more on the speculative side. But this all doesn't really matter because again, in each scenario someone had to fuck with the seal to explain what we see in Twilight Princess. I doubt Rauru himself would be able to undo the seal and the theory that he is Keapora Gaebora is problematic all on its own.

      Jedi Master Sagan wrote:

      That still doesn't really work, though, because the entire basis for going after Ganondorf was that he got Power in an alternate future and fucked shit up. Sure, he didn't touch the Triforce this time around, but the very fact that it went on walkabout anyway despite that is a clear indicator that something wonky is going on. "Hey let's make sure it didn't go to him again like the other two seem have done" is a pretty obvious thought to have, and something easily checked by anyone who knows how.
      I mean, they went to war right? The sages say Ganondorf was "A leader of thieves who once invaded Hyrule to establish dominion over the sacred place" and that does not seem like an accurate description of the events of OoT at all. Unless you want to count Ganondorf snooping around in Hyrule and failing to get the stones "an invasion". The moment Link meets Zelda again at the end of OoT is the moment they first meet in the courtyard. If he explains what is going on and they immediately go to tell the king uh, Ganondorf would still be there swearing his false fealty. If he overhears all that, Link and Zelda are still two dumb ten-ish year olds after all, he would realize his plans have been for naught and just go the brute force route with war. In this scenario there is little time to determine what he does or does not have: just get the Sacred Realm as far away from him as possible before he can breach it, or at least get it away from Castle Town so he won't lay waste to the capital. Then when they break the seal the sages appear and they get involved, but at this point Ganondorf is already parading around attacking Hyrule and little time to think about where the Triforce went. He himself at least he is not aware he is using it until after his detainment so it is not a major concern in the immediate moment.
      Extended Child Timeline (ECT): SS > Era of Wars > OoT > MM >> TP >>> TMC >> FS backstory >> FS > FSA >> Seal War > LTTP > OoX > LA >> LBW >> Golden Era >> Zelda 1 > Zelda 2 >>> BotW
      AT: SS > Era of Wars > OoT >> Great Flood >> TWW > PH >> ST >>> TFH

      Or have a picture of it instead.

      :sparta:
    • Ianmann290 wrote:

      is skull kid from majoras mask an imp or is he a skull kid? Cuz happy mask salesman says the imp took majoras mask but in OOT its said that children who get lost in the lost woods turn into skull kids. Please correct me if wrong.
      The people of Termina call him an Imp, but he is a Skull Kid that might or might not be born from the Lost Woods' Curse.

      We know that this Skull Kid is very old and knew the Giants prior to their departure.
    • Translation question. I was reading up on the Imprisoning War, and found this page with multiple retranslations of the ALttP manual. When the Triforce (or the crest of the Triforce, as it were) speaks to Ganondorf, one of the translations reads, "If thou hast a desire, then I shall desire it as well." This is reminiscent of Ganon's own line when bestowing his power to Zant: "If there is anything you desire, then I shall desire it, too."

      I'm wondering whether those lines are as similar in the Japanese. If they are, I'll consider it intentional and rather clever. Otherwise, it's probably just a coincidence.
      Goddess of the Sands

      Map of Thyphlo Ruins

      Forest Architects

      If you have Amiibo Tap: Nintendo's Greatest Bits on Wii U, you can reset which games your amiibo unlock by deleting the game and then redownloading it.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Evran_Speer ().

    • Evran_Speer wrote:

      I'm wondering whether those lines are as similar in the Japanese.

      I put the romanji too and it's even more clear ...

      Ganondorf :
      汝、望むもの有らば・・・我もまた、それを望む
      Nanji, nozomu mono araba ... ga mo mata, sore o nozomu
      If you desire anything... I will also desire it.


      The Triforce's Spirit :
      「汝、望むもの有らば、我もまた、それを望む。」
      Nanji, nozomu mono araba, ga mo mata, sore o nozomu.
      If thou hast a desire, then I shall desire it as well.

      They are the same line.

      そして、我が神の 望みは一つ
      And my god has one desire.

      Zant refers Ganon as a god, he is kinda playing the god here, he would be imitating what the Triforce's Spirit would say … but he never heard it in that Timeline.

      Okami Takahashi wrote:

      It doesn't make sense to me that the Zora "evolved" into the Rito in the WW.
      So why would they need to fly after the Great Flood?
      I think we may ask about the one responsible for the existence of the Ritos in the first place and it would be Valoo.

      First, Valoo is a Fire Dragon and, according to Hyrule Historia, a relative to the Tyrannic ex-guardian of Death Mountain, Volvagia.
      Assuming that Dragon Roost Island is Death Mountain why aren't the Gorons with him ?
      When we look at the few Gorons in that game, they all hide themself with hats, like if they were trying to escape from Something …
      And this something might be Valoo. As a descendant of Volvagia, the Gorons are unable to trust him and fear the Dragon. They left Valoo all by himself.

      Valoo is also a Sky Spirit and that's the reason why his scales grant their wings to the Rito. Their evolution was not really natural.

      Now, Jabun is free and swim like he wish to while Jabu Jabu was stuck in a pool and fed by the Zora as he can't find food by himself. Jabun doesn't need the Zora anymore.
      While Valoo did, so Jabun sent zoras to him.

      They need to fly so that they would serve Valoo, simple as that.
    • Still doesn't entirely make sense to me unfortunately. I still think, given there's Fishmen, Big Octos and other creatures capable of living within the Great Sea, that Sea Zora should still exist. Couldn't they at least have made it another evolutionary branch? I mean, you have Sea Zora and River Zora (and by extension, Geozards). We know Zora are capable of having an entirely underwater society, as we saw in Oracle of Ages. Sure, Hyrule is buried beneath the waves, but that doesn't mean the Zora couldn't have a domain under the Great Sea, with no knowledge of Hyrule's continued existence under the surface. If SOME number of Zora split off from the Sea Zora and THEN magically evolved with Valoo's scales, I'd be more ok with that.

      Nintendo lacks logic when it comes to storytelling in Zelda sometimes tbh.

      Sig banner by TruEdge76
      Avatar by ALinkBetweenHearts
    • ^
      In my head, there is another evolutionary split.

      The Zora have a royal family, but the Rito are governed by a chieftain. I say the Zora royal family and some followers stayed aquatic and left for different waters. The rest went on land and got airborne, choosing a new form of leadership along the way.

      No real evidence for this other than the lack of a King Rito, and any number of things could have lead to the abolishment of the monarchy. This maybe belongs more in the headcanon thread but oh well.
      The guinea pig in name only, for it is neither.