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    • ‘@Vynrah’

      Agreed. Sansa this season seemed like I was watching Mean Girls. She took a dislike to Dany before she knew anything about her. The writers really forced the Dany vs Sansa angle.

      We definitely will have to wait for George to give us the proper version. Hopefully yer man who plays Barristan Selmy (Ian McElhinny I think?) was right when he said that George has already finished TWoW but had agreed to wait until after the show had wrapped before publishing
    • Display Spoiler
      I can definitely see this development happening in the books, but with proper pacing. A fortnight ago we saw Dany fighting the dead for humanity and sobbing as Jorah died. Her change to a paranoid war criminal is impossible to reconcile in such a short time frame.

      If a little love was all Dany needed to stay sane then this never would've happened if Yara was here!

      The army going into rape and pillage mode didn't make sense to me, not because I expected better of the soldiers but because the city was being blasted to pieces. Why would anyone bother to continue fighting with fiery death flying overhead?

      Grey Worms change in attitude made perfect sense at least, man has lost everything that gave him meaning.

      Jaimes arc could've made at least a little sense if he mentioned he was trying to save his baby, not Cersei alone.

      The effects and main actors was great. Glad to see Cersei do something other than stare out a window.

      Would've been great if Davos was the viewpoint of the streets, seeing his home city devastated. Also Arya should've died five times in her sequence, then she somehow gets a horse at the end. Was it Stricklands? Might as well have been Shadowfax for all the sense it made.

      Maybe the true villains were the friends we made along the way.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Fal Cie ().

    • What is hot may never pie

      I am all for character arcs and character development and I dont think Jaime's arc was a waste nor ruined because of his decision to come back to Cersie the moment he knew its almost the end for her. I basically just saw Jaime as one tragic character. He's learned a lot this past few seasons and his character was built for him to make the right decisions in the long run and reflect of his mistakes in the past only to come back and succumb to his flawed side in the end.

      There was this post which basically interprets Jaime's character in a nutshell and i completely agree with this. He was a complicated character from the get-go and his addiction to cersei was very profound from the start. It's kind of like alcoholics and smokers, no matter how hard you try to quit, how hard you try to better yourself..."sometimes" you'd always end up coming back to the way you started. This honestly makes his character very human and relatable. As someone who's been to rehab twice, Jaime's complex characteristics in the show made a lot of sense to me. It's prob hard to understand to someone's who's never struggled with addiction though.

      Just as Tyrion said "You knew who she was, but you loved her anyway".

      I already expected Dany to cave in to the mad side like his dad. Jorah (and perhaps Misandei) dying was her last saving grace as they were the only ones who never doubted her, Jorah most especially. As Varys and everyone has already said, when a Targarean is born the gods flip a coin, now that we know which side her coin landed ~this to me foreshadowed she'll never make it in the end. That was the end of her character just like it was the end of Aeris the moment he burned innocent people.

      I didnt like this episode and I wasn't satisfied with it to say the least, but I did enjoyed it. I enjoyed the directing and cinematography, how they focused on Jon's face when he suddenly realized that the queen he bent the knee to is as crazy as the queen they're attacking. That was pretty cool to me. Clegane bowl was nice though i felt it's too long and too fan servicey but I guess a lot was satisfied to finally seeing the hype. I love how Cersei and Jaime died, though I agree that it was all too rushed but I loved the scene. Kudos to Lena Headey and Nikolaj for that immensely emotional scene. My god, how she started bawling the moment she saw Jaime in blood and how she still remained a villain saying "I dont want our baby to die" as if her last wish was to have her offspring survive even if it takes both their lives. Just wow, Lena deserves an award cause that scene made me cry with her character even tho i hated her for killing Ned. ^^

      I also read the leaked scripts and I was expecting a dumb ending but turns out they made it even dumber lol so im just "eh" all around. Oh well, I will prob rewatch The Sopranos again, because this show to me still is HBO's #1 tv series.

    • o am reading a lot of stuff online that is calling dany's arc borderline misogynist…ou-so-pissed-off-17037698?

      And I really cant agree? i mean i feel the same thing happened with gone girl where the antagonist was a very toxic woman and people claimed the movie was violent against women for portraying a woman being a psychopath while using her whiteness and gender to be evil essentially. And like, no?

      I feel like male characters are allowed to be explored for all their virtue and their vice. Why cant we explore women in the same manner? It is one dimensional and frankly sexist to imply women cannot be bad or fail in their cause in a compelling way.

      I dont think D&D very well captured Dany's "snap" as they call it very well. I feel it was a a poorly executed moment in story telling, but i disagree that her arc is sexist. The story is essentially bigger than her, she had generations of horrible men lead her family before and she, unlike jon has always been power hungry. Power corrupts, and i feel that is an interesting arc to explore? How regardless of gendered forms of ruling (dany is very much a "female" leader) power and history can habe horrendous results. I like GRRM for writing a story which does not ultimately result i n the positive for each character. Why not explore failure in this way?
    • Lucretia wrote:

      o am reading a lot of stuff online that is calling dany's arc borderline misogynist…ou-so-pissed-off-17037698?

      And I really cant agree? i mean i feel the same thing happened with gone girl where the antagonist was a very toxic woman and people claimed the movie was violent against women for portraying a woman being a psychopath while using her whiteness and gender to be evil essentially. And like, no?

      I feel like male characters are allowed to be explored for all their virtue and their vice. Why cant we explore women in the same manner? It is one dimensional and frankly sexist to imply women cannot be bad or fail in their cause in a compelling way.

      I dont think D&D very well captured Dany's "snap" as they call it very well. I feel it was a a poorly executed moment in story telling, but i disagree that her arc is sexist. The story is essentially bigger than her, she had generations of horrible men lead her family before and she, unlike jon has always been power hungry. Power corrupts, and i feel that is an interesting arc to explore? How regardless of gendered forms of ruling (dany is very much a "female" leader) power and history can habe horrendous results. I like GRRM for writing a story which does not ultimately result i n the positive for each character. Why not explore failure in this way?

      Yeah I'm cool with them exploring the failure of not one but many people that could all be interpreted as a hero prophecized for millennia all failing for different reasons, but like you said her snap was really poorly done. She didn't reach a breaking point and get fed up with it. She'd won. Victory was hers. They'd killed thousands to breach the walls and the enemy was broken. That's a weird god damn point to snap. Its like if she snapped when her friend was killed at the negotiation at the wall, fine, she just watched her friend die. Snap then. I could have gotten over it even if she had simply kept killing the surrendering soldiers, but from the next episode preview she completely turns the city to ash. King's Landing looks like the fucking kiln from Dark Souls 3.

      As it is she achieves victory and then hyperventilates for a minute and goes all Anakin Skywalker and kills like a million people in one go.
    • @Lucretia
      The execution of this arc in the show is, I think, stupidly bad...but its theoretically an arc that I think is wholly in keeping with the tone and themes of the series (both book and show). Like, I strongly disagree with a lot of what the article you linked is saying.

      Specifically in the case of Daenerys, I think she is both legitimately sympathetic to the slaves of Essos and using their suffering/liberation as rhetoric to convince herself, others, and the audience that this violence is necessary or justifiable, she gives us permission to "enjoy" it a bit. I think its legitimately debatable whether some of her more violent acts were necessary and I think that's the point. Like we can justify Daenerys burning the Tarlys, but she defined the circumstances one imposed kneel or burn on her, that was all Daenerys. I think the writing around this (in regards to other characters' reactions to it) was weak, but that's some fine ground work to lay..........I just think we needed waaay more of that in Westeros.

      I hate to keep saying it, but we need more TIME too! The whiplash from Daenerys will sacrifice greatly to save the world and is a good guy --> Daenerys will sacrifice some of her principles to stop Cersei (whom we barely even take time to further vilify this season??) and retake the throne --> DAENERYS WILL MASSACRE AN ENTIRE CITY OTHERWISE UNPROVOKED WHILE IT IS ACTIVELY SURRENDERING over the course of like 2 episodes is just....too much.

      I still think the Targaryen coin-flip call-back was straight up BAD. The original context of it was genetic MADNESS. She grapples with her heritage a good bit. Ser Barristan's only real role in the show is to arrive and convince her that uh, yeah not ALL of that "Mad King" stuff was lies and she seems to come to terms with that and multiple times she commits to doing better. I have no goddamn idea why she burns King's Landing because for me the show just didn't give me a reason, its not there on-screen. If its really just "she is CRAZY" then I don't buy it based on all this time with her. I don't buy that she would burn the whole city unprovoked, I'd find it believable she'd burn the civillian-shield in the Red Keep. I'd also buy her turning on the small-folk in a rage, say if Rhaegal had died there and the people had cheered. If its something more than madness, something more calculated then that...then extra sloppy execution.

      Jon is also somewhat frustrating to me right now and especially in contrast to Daenerys this season. He falls for Ramsay's trap with no consequences at Battle of the Bastards after being warned, Sansa (whom I've been TOLD is very savvy!) thinks he is naive and not strong enough for the North after he is crowned, he tells his sisters his secret heritage despite warnings from Daenerys and directly after both Sansa + Arya are like "we hate her!", AND he cannot suck it up and attempt to resolve things with Daenerys in a politically expedient way at personal cost to himself. Robb and so many died because he wouldn't sacrifice his personal happiness (and in the book its also because Honor™) to follow through on a political bargain he had made. Ned is dead in part because he tipped his hand to Cersei in an attempt to spare her and the children. Actions used to have consequences and Jon has basically not endured any since his murder...if its just "the horror of watching King's Landing burn," that is not personal enough and it feels like horseshit. I honestly do not know how they end his arch without making me mad lmao.

      As for all the other female character complaints:

      Kristin Magaldi wrote:

      It’s no secret that this season has majorly let down its female characters and fans alike — Missandei, one of the few characters of color, died in chains in episode 4, Sansa's past abuse has been construed as character-building, and Cersei, formerly ruthless and relentless in her pursuit to keep the throne, died begging for her life under a pile of rocks.
      I think these moments and characters were just not given the time/writing needed to pay off what they went with:

      Missandei dying in chains feels like a deliberate choice to me...???? Missandei has always been a little under-utilized in a show profoundly lacking in good roles for people of color, but I actually don't think they willy-nilly put her in chains...? I think people SHOULD be mad about her death, but not that specifically. The circumstances and staging of her death are insultingly dumb: Cersei is moving civillian "hostages" into the Red Keep to protect herself and takes a hugely valuable actual hostage and just....kills her without ANYONE commenting on that in the lead up or after the fact? No Tyrion reassuring Daenerys that "She would be mad to kill her, she's her most valuable hostage!" like, nothing? Okay. The entire set-up is stupid: Euron teleports out of nowhere because we NEED the stakes to be raised/more bad stuff to happen to Daenerys' army and specifically we gotta down a dragon and take Missandei hostage just so we can kill her in front of Daenerys and make her mad...that is a lot of yikes. She was reduced to a plot device and everyone should be mad about that. But her being in chains was deliberate and I think one of the most in-character moments for Cersei this whole season. Watching Grey Worm toss her slave collar into the fire this past episode speaks to how deliberate it was (I think). I get people's complaints, but that's not one of mine.

      Sansa has been underwritten for a few seasons now. :( I am fine with her being a "darker" Sansa, I'm fine with her not trusting Daenerys, I'm fine with like 100% of her discussion with Tyrion in crypts and post-Jon reveal and I almost liked her private conversation with Daenerys...but around the same time the show stopped SHOWING me that characters were smart and started speedrunning to the end is when Sansa started being able to have more agency and I'm left with them just TELLING me she is brilliant and her actions make sense and wanting me to take that at face value. Like...okay. Fine. We only get a tiny few moments where she's owning her own growth...without Shea and Littlefinger we get very few private moments where she reveals her interior self and the moments we do get are snippets like the one with the Hound. Like...there's a universe in which I buy that Sansa does believe (in a FUCKED UP WAY clearly) that her suffering has made her stronger as a way of coping with what has happened to her........but maybe we don't need the Hound talking about her getting "broken in rough" right before that and maybe we need more time to really sit with that disturbingly tragic thought...... -_-

      Cersei barely got any lines this season before her death scene, they clearly did not know what to do with her. The number of times Dany/Jon&Co. met with her to talk to no avail has been painfully dumb and has done very little to progress or give further insight into her character. I know a lot of people wanted their bloodlust sated after this character was built up as a villain for sooo long, but denying the audience that is par for the course. I find it believable that she has never really come to terms with the fact that she can die until those last moments. She's a very self-centered person and even her love of Jaime and her children can feel at times like its an expression of her admiration for herself, she and her family are everything and everyone else is a threat. Even when she clearly is not, she is always convinced that she is in control of whatever she's scheming to do...and if she recognizes that she isn't in control, it is all because she's a woman and this world is bullshit. She finally got the power she wanted (and she feels she deserved) and she does what I expect Cersei to do: very little of importance for the realm, lots of reveling in her own success, tormenting everyone that has (or she thinks has) slighted her, and plotting the downfall of everyone else around her who threatens her in any way. She clings to the seat of power until not even she can deny the ruin around her because that is all she has. Crying when she finally cannot deny her impending death is not that surprising to me? The baby stuff is She basically had no "redeeming" qualities in the show besides "she loves her children!" so they went with that for some pathos I guess. I've seen some complaints that "no one wanted this 'happy' of an ending for her," but again I think that's par for the course. Undeserving fucks get good moments sometimes even though they don't deserve it.

      Not mentioned are Arya and Brienne. I don't know where the series will leave them, but Brienne right now is in "bullshit ughhhh" territory where...I don't even know what they do with her to make me less frustrated. Arya has been mostly good if kinda weird/inconsistent? Like maybe you should talk her out of killing Cersei before you get to the Red Keep? Earlier season pace and we could have got a mini-road trip where you see this happen on the way...alas.

      In closing: I think the stuff I've been bothered by or find drift towards "sexist" in this show has very little to do with any main character arcs or a lot of the trajectory things people are complaining about and have a lot more to do with the lack of care and attention in writing and staging some of these moments. The staging of Sansa's rape was bad. The execution of her most recent scene with the Hound was bad. Both of these events happening plot-wise and character-wise are okay, but care needs to be taken in how you portray them. :\

      The patriarchal nature of the universe of Game of Thrones is very intentional and very much a part of these characters' journeys, it is not inconsequential or unnecessary. The content is fine, the execution has often been bad and exhausting.
    • A more sympathetic take

      Because I cannot find a way to turn my brain off while I wait for this accursed last episode, I present you all with one additional thought RE: Daenerys Sexism:

      I can see how Daenerys becoming "evil" could feel exhausting, tiresome, and punishing in our current real-world hellscape, even if I don't feel it myself.

      The article you linked does touch on this towards the end, but I think it may bear a tiny bit more examination.

      We're not that far removed from the 2016 election, which (whatever else you may think of it) left many women feeling disheartened and despondent. Since then we've had debacle of the Kavanaugh hearing, had to watch him be seated to the highest court in the country despite everything. Just this week, a tidal wave of legislation aimed at overturning Roe vs. Wade and ending legal abortion in the states has been signed into law. Women have publicly ripped open their own wounds in an attempt to persuade others that these things matter...women relaying some of their most humiliating or uncomfortable or personal experiences of harassment and rape, opening themselves up to ridicule and trolling by talking openly about their own abortions. For many white women especially, the past few years have been the first time they've been so viscerally confronted with the brutal, inescapable struggle that other marginalized people have known for decades...and I don't think we live through these years without developing some psychic scars, it has been too personal and too egregious for all or most women to get to this point fully unscathed.

      Now, there are a lot of lazy takes out there that bring up the modern political landscape as I have and especially the 2016 election in the Game of Thrones context...but I don't think they properly address or speak to the feeling of collective pain that has surrounded these years for many women. It's not just that women are frustrated, it hurts and I think that's a unique and powerful dimension which has shaped the lens through which many women have been viewing/consuming media the past few years. Women grapple with and cope with reality through stories just as much as men do and I think it's wholly understandable why so many women would identify with and latch on to the primary "good" powerful female lead in this show and expect more for her and from her than this.

      So I do think a degree of sensitivity is understandable. I don't agree with the take as I outlined in my previous post, but I absolutely understand how you could feel like they betrayed the character of Daenerys under these circumstances and especially with a botched/ambiguous execution of the twist. The show has already held up one woman of ambition (Cersei) as an evil despot and we only just dispatched her this same episode. The show has killed nearly all the other politically ambitious women up to now, Sansa being the only real exception.

      For all that Sansa is, she is also a character that I think many women decidedly did not enjoy identifying with. She was powerlessly passed around and brutalized for many years as this show has pressed on...something they just reminded us of with her conversation with the Hound. I think the adaptation and alteration of Sansa's arch is also something which made many people uncomfortable and uneasy about the creative direction in later seasons. Much of the brutalization of her character is not directed at her in the source material...and whether or not you feel the decision to thrust her into that role was necessary for the adaptation, there are implications to them doing so which may (and for many, has) color how you view the creative choices the showrunners make as the series goes on. Like, I don't think Jeyne Poole is going to be shaped and hardened into a powerful political player by her horrific rape and torture in the books...was her journey something that needed to be foisted onto Sansa? Did it need to be included at all? We may like Sansa, we may empathize with her, but ultimately...I don't want to be her...there's too much suffering for too little gain.

      Daenerys on the other hand was an underdog in circumstance if not in name. She had a traumatic start, but we've had years watching her grow in power...years for us to embrace her as an icon. She overcame obstacles and lifted others up. She defied society's expectations of could you not get a little excited and swept up by Daenerys Stormborn's progress in a world that wanted so badly for her to fail over these years? How do you not fall for her a bit as she's finally coming into her power when at the same time you feel more powerless than ever in your own life?

      Arya and Brienne may also defy society's expectations and chafe at the narrowly defined roles they're meant to fill, but both ultimately stop short of seeking any real far-reaching power. Neither seeks to enforce their vision or virtues upon society as a whole. Their goals and triumphs are more on a personal level...they're relatable, but not nearly as aspirational. In our world, its the exertion of political power which has seemed out of our grasp and that was where Daenerys was headed. I think you can get a sense of how desperate some people are for a vision of female political power when you see how many people have embraced dark lord Cersei...even a character that's been painted as near-completely evil inspires some satisfaction in the current political and media landscape.

      And now with just a single episode left, one of the final major female players in the show turns on a dime after total victory to commit the worst war crime ever? Something less justified, with a higher body count than Cersei?

      I can see how this would be exhausting, like being kicked while you're down...and again, especially when we compare some of the male characters' arcs. And what are we meant to take from this? There's a lot of implications which are depressing...which may be on brand for this show, but can still feel bad in context and again especially with this execution. And this is all setting aside how loaded "mad queen" can feel in a world where women are "hysterical," "crazy," "bitches."

      Again, I don't agree that this turn for the character is "sexist," but I can see why people may feel betrayed by the turn in a way that is fundamentally different than many of the other cruel twists the show has pulled off. I can see how this feels more personal. Just additional food for thought, I guess.

      Now I've meandered for far more words than this warrants, but I think that just goes to show just how much this show and this story have asked us to invest in them...and why many are more disappointed than is (debatably) proportional to what's happening as it comes to an end.

      I'm sure I'll be back with even more to say after this is all said and done.
      This better be good.

    • IDK bout all these feministic views and takes, but (to me) I already saw her downfall when she decided to crucify the masters in Mereen, and that if unguided she'll make the same dumb mistakes again, if not worse.

      I dont see Dany "snapping" because she's a woman, I see her "snapping" because she's a Targarean and not the chosen Targ at that.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Chloroform ().

    • I hated just about everything in the finale for about the same reason as I hated the episode before it. Nothing in it was given the proper time to feel natural at all. Since fast travel has been enabled for the past season and a half you never get a feel for how long characters have known each other. Did Jon and Danny know each other long enough for him to be this broken up about killing her? With all the back and forth travel you'd think they've known each other for the better part of a year and the season to season jump taking about a year kind of makes you think that too, but if you watch 7 and 8 back to back it barely feels like a month or two.

      Display Spoiler
      Peter Dinklage's acting when he finds the bodies was good, but the fact that it was just rocks fall and Jaime and Cersei both die that way was really lame, but not because they didn't die in some climactic main character vs main character battle. Its because Cersei didn't fucking do anything the last 2 episodes. She had like 4 lines total as the world fell apart around her. I was expecting like one last great act of spite and cool bitchiness from her. Maybe a double suicide or something even just to deny Danny the kill.

      Bran getting picked as king felt...really random. Sure objectively having the human wikipedia of Westeros as king might not be bad, but that doesn't feel like a pick most of those characters would make. Also Tyrion's bit about how he thought he was wise ticked me off mainly because he only stopped being wise the moment he started serving Danny. From then on he was dumb and she was dumb for listening to him it seemed.

      I kind of had the same problem with this as Tokyo Ghoul's ending. They went a bit too far out of their way to show "Here's all the good guys that are still alive and all their happy endings where they get to go do what they always wanted to."