But can anyone truly be unbiased? In order to be objective, you must know for certain what something is, and how would you know?

Durga wrote:

But can anyone truly be unbiased? In order to be objective, you must know for certain what something is, and how would you know?

Must I keep repeating myself?

Put it this way: would you rather have more truth or less truth?

Depends on whether there is such a thing as more or less truth. I don't know for sure how to measure that, so I cannot objectively know what I want. Do you have a scale for measuring that, oh great objectivist?

Durga wrote:

Depends on whether there is such a thing as more or less truth. I don't know for sure how to measure that, so I cannot objectively know what I want. Do you have a scale for measuring that, oh great objectivist?

Cut the crud.

Obviously there is such a thing as more or less truth-- it's called being objective vs. subjective.

EDIT: Or perhaps accurate is the word I should have used.
Subjective truth can indeed be coincidental.

Tonch wrote:

Cut the crud.

Obviously there is such a thing as more or less truth-- it's called being objective vs. subjective.

There is? Prove it. I thought you wanted to be objective.

Durga wrote:

There is? Prove it. I thought you wanted to be objective.

Wikipedia wrote:

In philosophy, an objective fact means a truth that remains true everywhere, independently of human thought or feelings. For instance, it is true always and everywhere that 'in base 10, 2 plus 2 equals 4'. A subjective fact is one that is only true under certain conditions, at certain times, in certain places, or for certain people.

Subjective truths sure don't sound like real truths at all, do they? What good are truths if they only work "some of the time"?

Andy wrote:

You are one sad individual.

My teachers have taught me subtly that objectivity and logic prevail.

Here's the thing though, my life doesn't suck at all. On the contrary, I love how my life turned out because I'm doing what I love now!

What I was saying is that I excelled in school but it didn't teach me anything except random facts about things I didn't care about. So I did everything that was expected of me; I did everything that was said to make me "successful" in life, and yet here I was unhappy about where I was.

I'm all for practicality. I love living for the here and now. I'm a very simple person and hate it when people try to complicate things. If I want to learn about computers I want to get specific answers for my specific questions. Schools in their current state with their lack of resources are incapable of teaching efficiently what many people want or need.

I guess you could say I'm against the school system, not teachers or anything - I mean I studied to be one. I come from a long line of teachers - my grandfather was one, my uncle (who has as Master's Degree in Mexico and in the US), my great aunt, my aunt.

If there's anything that I learned from teachers it was from my 4th grade teacher, Mr. Smith (very original name right?). He taught us to not let our brain go to waste. He would send a couple of his top students to the 5th grader's class so we could do their math and get ahead of the game, and he'd also send us to the 3rd grader's class so we could help them get up to speed.

There are things you learn in school that you can't learn elsewhere or in books....

You learn objectivity, to be analytical, perseverance, you gain a work ethic, independence, general knowledge (the useless stuff as you would say), infrastructure, teamwork, and individuality.

Really, it's quite an experience. Employers don't look for what you learned to show through, but that you learned.

Andy wrote:

There are things you learn in school that you can't learn elsewhere or in books....

You learn objectivity, to be analytical, perseverance, you gain a work ethic, independence, general knowledge (the useless stuff as you would say), infrastructure, teamwork, and individuality.

Really, it's quite an experience. Employers don't look for what you learned to show through, but that you learned.

That's absolutely true. I just hate the way in which schools are run these days - especially college. If you are not interested in what you're being taught at school then why would you continue to cooperate with them? It's your career, it's your future - you have a right to have a say in what you'd like to learn.

But everything else you mentioned, you can learn from many different experiences in life. Heck, if you have the determination you can gain that sort of thinking just by working at a mechanic's shop, or even at a super market.

Durga wrote:

He never said that objectivity is bad, merely that subjective personal experience is very important, and modern science can tend to forget that sometimes.

I could barely accept your claim that philosophy could do with more subjectivity, but this is ridiculous. Modern science needs as much objectivity (and as little subjectivity) as it can get, or else we'll never know anything.

Sabbo wrote:

I could barely accept your claim that philosophy could do with more subjectivity, but this is ridiculous. Modern science needs as much objectivity (and as little subjectivity) as it can get, or else we'll never know anything.

Maybe someone else like you can explain it better, because I'm horrible at getting things like this across on a second's notice.

Tonch wrote:

Maybe someone else like you can explain it better, because I'm horrible at getting things like this across on a second's notice.

Well I'll try, if that guy comes back and tries to argue his point.

Sabbo wrote:

Well I'll try, if that guy comes back and tries to argue his point.

Good luck-- personally, I don't know how much more than "more truth or less truth" needs to be said.

DigitalRicket wrote:

That's absolutely true. I just hate the way in which schools are run these days - especially college. If you are not interested in what you're being taught at school then why would you continue to cooperate with them? It's your career, it's your future - you have a right to have a say in what you'd like to learn.

But everything else you mentioned, you can learn from many different experiences in life. Heck, if you have the determination you can gain that sort of thinking just by working at a mechanic's shop, or even at a super market.

Public schooling, maybe. It's catered to the lowest-common-denominator and without too much input on the brighter kid's part, it might lead to a very underwhelming experience. This is where perseverance comes in to play, though. If you stick to your convictions and finish your diploma you've learned the importance of perseverance, especially when it comes to dealing with the banalities of life that is otherwise not very spectacular or challenging. And once you complete that high school diploma you're ready to step it up to the next level.

In college you only take the classes you choose to take. There's absolutely no reason why that can get in your way, if you don't want to learn about world civilizations you don't have to, you do have a say in what you learn. I've been in college for two and a half years and I've never taken a class that I didn't physically sign up for.

Sure, those things can be learned throughout life, but that little piece of paper you work for in school shows that you do have all those things, not that you'll learn them later somewhere. Further, you learn all of them at once through practice and constant use; guaranteeing you're well-developed in each. That's what employers look for, someone who already possesses these traits and is well practiced with each of them. A degree shows that you have them.

And college, when looked at objectively, is run really rather well. It could be a bit more straightforward, yeah, but like I said, it's catered to the lowest common denominator. Don't like it? Seek an institution that has higher standards because obviously you need to be there.

Andy wrote:

And college, when looked at objectively, is run really rather well. It could be a bit more straightforward, yeah, but like I said, it's catered to the lowest common denominator. Don't like it? Seek an institution that has higher standards because obviously you need to be there.

But here's what I'm saying, I didn't need school to get the job I have now. Nothing really prepared me for it except just proving I could do it. And I 'm loving it.

Also, have you ever heard of James Bach? He was an eighth grade drop out who became the youngest group manager at Apple. He now works for himself and is touted as Dr. Bach, though never even going so far as getting a GED for the high school he never attended.

I know of other examples who took learning and their education into their own hands - without the need of an authority or institution to tell you what you need to know. Most examples like these are small and far in between because it's such a "Crazy" lifestyle, to teach yourself the things you want to learn, and not depending on someone else to give you the knowledge you want.

I respect your opinion. Some people need school to structure their learning abilities. But others, however, are disciplined, or rather determined enough, to take their education by the reigns - paving their own road to "success", which means different things to different people.

One of the most important things in life is having extraordinary drive. With that you're guaranteed to be successful pretty much no matter what.

The thing is, as you said the type with extraordinary drive are few and far between. Without schooling, these people would never be motivated to learn these things: objectivity, diligence, infrastructure, discipline, teamwork, general knowledge, etc. etc.

Of course the society in which we live makes it so schooling is not altogether necessary. However, it is highly competitive and you can't expect to compete with the gathering masses of workers without these skills, and there's no way for a potential employer to know that you possess those things unless they get to know you better. And with such a large pool of applicants there's no way they afford the time to do that with every single person. That's why they seek those with degrees from institutions- those are like big automatic "HEY I HAVE *above mentioned traits* SO PICK ME" signs. It's damned near impossible to obtain a degree without having those things beat into the back of your skull. So an employer knows applicants with degrees are good candidates because they have those. A person with naught but a GED might easily have never been a diligent work in their life, might be lazy and lack a good and broad range of knowledge, or be totally clueless to society without people telling them what to do. Of course there's always those high-school-drop-outs who are more brilliant than PHD and JD holders. But really, there's no way to know if an applicant possesses the right traits if they don't have the degree.

This is why the majority of us go through all these hoops and processes; to show in the competitive job market that we're a good selection. You're very fortunate that you managed to prove to your employer the traits he wanted without having a degree. Trust me on that.

My maths teacher helped me come to the realization that maths is stupid.

My first grade teacher should have taught me how to write legibly.

DigitalRicket wrote:

I didn't learn much from my teachers except to follow directions and do my best. However, I think my entire school career sums up what I've learned: school is pointless - go out and make your own education.

Well, have fun making minimum wage the rest of your life and never retiring.

Margar wrote:

Well, have fun making minimum wage the rest of your life and never retiring.

There's someone who didn't read the whole topic, but don't worry - I forgive you