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Why were Ordon's children in TP kidnapped?
  • Celvantis wrote:

    The answer is in the grammer. The capital or lack of, changes the whole meaning of the word from a name to a description, or rather humanoid.

    Yup, that was my line of thinking, too -- in Twilight Princess, for example, Midna frequently uses the "[You] humans" label when talking to Link about himself. Which clearly suggests a humanoid descriptor...in other words, characteristics such as "tall," "bipedal," "living in organized social communities," etc., which both humans and Hylians do.

    It's a generalized label which would encompass both elves, as well as humans, without too much exact specificity.
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    The post was edited 1 time, last by The Bandsaw Vigilante ().

  • Chaos Auteur wrote:

    Actually, using Occam's Razor in this case would be to consider Link's species elven, which (as mentioned above) one of the staple races of high fantasy literature, and very likely the main influence upon Miyamoto nearly 25 years ago. (To say nothing of countless other fantasy games out on the market today.)

    That's the absolute simplest logical reasoning, here. One really shouldn't overthink these things, particularly relating to a mere video game series.

    The simplest explanation is that a dude who looks perfectly human but with funny ears is a just human with funny ears.


    Chaos Auteur wrote:

    Right, admittedly the short people in Zelda II could simply be extremely short people, but in the case of ALttP, the dwarven swordsmiths in Kakariko Town are clearly called..."the Dwarven Swordsmiths," during the game's closing credits. ;)

    So we definitely know that dwarves exist in Hyrule, as well, even if in only one game.

    Forgot about them. But that doesn't prove or disprove dwarves' or elves' humanity in this setting.
    Also in Link to the Past, most Hylians don't know they're any different from the rest of the population. In Wind Waker, there was just the trait of "long-eared" being mentioned with no indication that they belonged to a separate race.
    Hylians aren't rare in these games because they're a separate species, but because they're mixing into the rest of the population and their traits are disappearing.

    Chaos Auteur wrote:

    Yup, that was my line of thinking, too -- in Twilight Princess, for example, Midna frequently uses the "[You] humans" label when talking to Link about himself. Which clearly suggests a humanoid descriptor...in other words, characteristics such as "tall," "bipedal," "living in organized social communities," etc., which both humans and Hylians do.

    It's a generalized label which would encompass both elves, as well as humans, without too much exact specificity.


    I don't know what you're talking about.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by TheGhostOfMandrag ().

  • Mandrag wrote:

    The simplest explanation is that a dude who looks perfectly human but with funny ears is a just human with funny ears.

    No offense, just wondering, but...where, exactly, are you getting this whole idea from? You're completely ruling out roughly 75 years' worth of modern fantasy storytelling influences, including elves, most of which undoubtedly played a key role in Shigeru Miyamoto's world-building of Hyrule around two decades ago.

    Or, to put it another way:

    Name one casual, average-Joe, non-gamer person off the street who might look at a picture of Link, and not think, "That's an elf."

    The simplest explanation is, Link's people (the Hylians) are, and have always, intended to be elven, and it's very likely a translational artifact in these games that the word "human" has crept in (much like the artifacts and miscues in the original SNES version of ALttP, for example).

    All I'm saying is (and again, please don't think I'm trying to be a douche here, or anything -- it's cool) one doesn't have to take every quotation from the game so literally. Matter of fact, if there's one thing history has shown us, it's that no Zelda translation is ever 100 % perfect.


    Mandrag wrote:

    Forgot about them. But that doesn't prove or disprove dwarves' or elves' humanity in this setting.
    Also in Link to the Past, most Hylians don't know they're any different from the rest of the population. In Wind Waker, there was just the trait of "long-eared" being mentioned with no indication that they belonged to a separate race.
    Hylians aren't rare in these games because they're a separate species, but because they're mixing into the rest of the population and their traits are disappearing.


    Again, though, those elements would be more "fanon" than canon; aspects read by fans into the games, and not things explicitly mentioned in the games themselves (or in the official Nintendo documentation and/or backstories).
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    The post was edited 3 times, last by The Bandsaw Vigilante ().

  • About the kidnapping of Malo, Talo and Beth - I find it reasonable to believe that the Bulblins continued to the village to raid, where they found the kids outside Link's house. Remember that you find two Bulblins there later on.

    And then they just drop the kids off when they become too much of a hassle. Maybe Malo whacked them with his wooden sword or something, since you find it broken on the road. Ilia they brought with them further because... they're dirty pigs, I suppose. Really, that's about as deep as I can go into a Bulblin's mind. They seem like the kind of beasts that just do mischief because they find it funny.


    On another note, someone mentioned that King Bulblin worked for Ganon all along, and I wouldn't really count on that. Remember, he "follows the strongest side". It's easy for him to change allegiance from Zant to Ganondorf, as Ganondorf is much more powerful.
  • Chaos Auteur wrote:

    No offense, just wondering, but...where, exactly, are you getting this whole idea from? You're completely ruling out roughly 75 years' worth of modern fantasy storytelling influences, including elves, most of which undoubtedly played a key role in Shigeru Miyamoto's world-building of Hyrule around two decades ago.

    Elves throughout fantasy are largely inconsistent in their traits. No two stories treat elves the same way except that they're magical and point-eared. Nothing has ever claimed, that I've read, that elves are a different species.

    Chaos Auteur wrote:

    Or, to put it another way:

    Name one casual, average-Joe, non-gamer person off the street who might look at a picture of Link, and not think, "That's an elf."

    He's a dude with pointy ears, yes. That's what most people would call an elf, myself included.

    Chaos Auteur wrote:

    The simplest explanation is, Link's people (the Hylians) are, and have always, intended to be elven, and it's very likely a translational artifact in these games that the word "human" has crept in (much like the artifacts and miscues in the original SNES version of ALttP, for example).

    The simplest explanation is that an elf is also human.

    Chaos Auteur wrote:

    All I'm saying is (and again, please don't think I'm trying to be a douche here, or anything -- it's cool) one doesn't have to take every quotation from the game so literally. Matter of fact, if there's one thing history has shown us, it's that no Zelda translation is ever 100 % perfect.

    This isn't anything to do with specific quotations. No games have ever differentiated between Hylians and non-Hylians more than ears and telepathy.

    Chaos Auteur wrote:

    Again, though, those elements would be more "fanon" than canon; aspects read by fans into the games, and not things explicitly mentioned in the games themselves (or in the official Nintendo documentation and/or backstories).

    What's not explicitly mentioned, or even implied, in the games is that Hylians aren't human.
  • Mandrag wrote:

    Elves throughout fantasy are largely inconsistent in their traits. No two stories treat elves the same way except that they're magical and point-eared. Nothing has ever claimed, that I've read, that elves are a different species.

    The simplest explanation is that an elf is also human.

    Word of advice:

    I wouldn't go around saying that in earshot-range of any J.R.R. Tolkien fans...that's pretty much tantamount to heresy.


    Mandrag wrote:

    This isn't anything to do with specific quotations. No games have ever differentiated between Hylians and non-Hylians more than ears and telepathy.

    My earlier point, though, was discussing real-world cultural influences upon Miyamoto when he originally created the series...in this case, decades' worth of fantasy works, which include elves, and which is undoubtedly what Link was/is intended to be, whether explicitly acknowledged in-game or not.

    Now, as we've even seen in Tolkien's works, there can exist multiple varieties of elves (the Eldar -- including Vanyar, Noldor, Teleri, Sindar, etc.), and there appears to be more than one branch of pointy-eared, elven-type race present in Hyrule as well (the Kokiri and the Hylians).

    Yes, Link might well be considered "a human" by some in-game, perhaps, but in terms of strict, absolute, real-world factors, Miyamoto was clearly going for a far more exotic, fantasy-oriented "hook" for his game and its lead character, which is what led him to giving Link a clear elven appearance in the first place.

    I think we're both coming to the same conclusion, just from opposite vectors, here.


    Mandrag wrote:

    What's not explicitly mentioned, or even implied, in the games is that Hylians aren't human.

    True, it's not suggested either way, but the absence of evidence still is not the evidence of absence.
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    The post was edited 1 time, last by The Bandsaw Vigilante ().

  • Biologically speaking, if A and B mate and give birth to C, and C is capable of reproduction, then A and B are of the same species... None of Zelda games with round-eared humans and hylians makes them live separate from each other, so I guess hylians and humans can have children, hence, they are of the same species...
    Following this mentality, though, in most fantasy settings elves are of the same species as humans too...
  • TheRippleEffect wrote:



    EDIT: I thought about it some more, and decided that it's just a plot device. Link needed incentive to follow Midna on her quest for the Fused Shadows, and kidnapping his friends was generic enough to work.


    I agree. i don't think there was/is very much backstory to this part. it was just there to make everything else in the storyline fall into place.
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  • First off, we need to know what Zant wanted right? He wanted to rule the Twilight and Light (Hyrule) Realms. Maybe the children were Kidnapped to be raised or molded into followers of Zant. Since the adults and Link were too resistant to become followers. I know it sounds weird but it may be what happened.

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  • This is a really late comment but what if King Bulblin is actually good. He was working with Zant until he realized that the Twilight Realm is ruining his world so he decides to help Link. As a way to lure Link into the Twilight he kidnapped all the children so that Link would be motivated to chase after them.
    After he took Colin as a way to tear Link to make sure that he was ready to fight Ganondorf.
    Zant found out and decided to punish him, so Bulblin became bad again.
    I completely made this up but it’s the best explanation I can give you.
  • Wow, this thread is almost a decade old. We don't allow posting in threads more than about six months old, so I'll go ahead and lock this one.

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